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Conway
Olympic Medalist
Joined: 25 Aug 2001
Posts: 3570
Location: Northen California
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 Posted: Mon Sep 09, 2002 1:38 pm Post subject: |
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| jeffh wrote: | Hines was the #1 rated US sprinter for the 100M in 68 and 67and #2 in1966.I think Hines was before
prime when he left the sport.Heck Maurice Greene was only the #10 in1996 and #4 in 1995. Of course that was before his prime which is the point with Hayes/Hines. |
As far as that goes, everyone competing before the mid 80's was competing "before their prime" ... So while HInes was #1 in '68 it was gainst similar competition - no one was competing much past early 20's and there were no professionals ... So in essense both Hines and Greene have competed against "like" competition ....
I have had the fortune to meet (as in actually hold a conversation with) several world class sprinters ... Including Jim Hines, John Carlos, Mel Pender, Steve Williams, Don Quarrie, Clancy Edwards, James Sanford, Carl Lewis (briefest conversation) Millard Hampton, Jon Drummond and several others ... I can tell you that almost all of them have quoted outrageous times that they feel they can/could/could have run ... Usuallly based on a practice session or two where they did something fantastic ... So I have no doubt that Bob Hayes probably still feels he could run 9.5 for 100 meters ... Part of the nature of being a great sprinter ...
Conway |
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Dan
Chief Pontificator
Joined: 22 Mar 1999
Posts: 9334
Location: Salem, OR
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| Posted: Mon Sep 09, 2002 2:07 pm Post subject: |
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Similarly, I've had some of my sprinters do workouts where they'd hit intervals with running starts that predicted times up to 1.5 seconds faster than they were running in races (200m), even with 0.5+ allotted for a competition block start (probably more like a second). It's amazing what can be done on occasion with a relaxed practice atmosphere and a generous hand time...
Dan |
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jeffh
Water Boy
Joined: 14 Apr 2002
Posts: 47
Location: NC
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| Posted: Mon Sep 09, 2002 2:20 pm Post subject: |
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Jim Hines only competed for a few years before he went to the AFL.He seemed to be improving when he retired.Therefore,I think his best times
were ahead of him.Who knows what he could have done.As far as pre-1985 sprinters "retiring before their primes."Lets look and see:
Charlie Green,I know ran from 1964-1971.Mel Pender ran longer than Hines.Steve Williams was running in 1973 and I know ran until 1980.
Eddie Hart ran forever.Houston Mctear and Ivory Crockett ran 5 or 6 years.The point is most of these sprinters explored their full potential.At least,thats my opinion.I personally think Hayes had more potential than Hines. |
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Conway
Olympic Medalist
Joined: 25 Aug 2001
Posts: 3570
Location: Northen California
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| Posted: Mon Sep 09, 2002 3:30 pm Post subject: |
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Well if you want let's explore pre 1985 sprinters and whether or not they got to reacah their potential ... I will start with those you named ...
Charlie Green and Mel Pender both continued past '68 but primarily because they were associated with the Army and had to fulfill their requirements with them ... Both were much more concerned with earning a living than competing which is why neither was anywhere near form come the 1972 trials ...
Eddie Hart retired after the 1972 Olympics as he could not stand the trauma of the events that took place ... He and Rey Robinson (since we are talking potential retired) ... Eddie did make a comeback in 1978 and ran his PR of 10.07 !!!! 6 years after tying the WR !!!! So if anyone could talk about what their potential was it is Eddie !!!!! He ran for a couple of seasons before retiring again ...
Houston McTear is a sad tail ... He suffered a severe hamstring pull at the end of hte 1976 Oly trials 100 where he qualified for the team .... None to bright (another sprinter I was blessed to meet on more than one occassion) McTear could not get into a major University ... More of a side show than anything he was brought out to California to run for Santa MOnica City College ... A year there and another at Cerritos College saw him run JC records ... Once that was through he had no m oney and no where ot go and disappeared for a couple of seasons ... Muhammad Ali heard about him and sponsored him for a couple of years but his drive was long gone as was his self esteem ... Houston never even had a shot at his potential !!!! Economics and lack of education killed his career before it ever got started ... He had more support as the high school phenom than he ever did afterwards ..... And his speed was the real deal !!!! |
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Conway
Olympic Medalist
Joined: 25 Aug 2001
Posts: 3570
Location: Northen California
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| Posted: Mon Sep 09, 2002 3:30 pm Post subject: |
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Steve Williams was another who was done in by injuries ... Just as he started to reach his prime in 1976 he suffered a serious career threatening hamstring injury ... Just before the Olympic Trials ... Williams had 3 9.09 clockings to his credit (1 in 75 and 2 in 76) leading up to the trials ... Then the injury ... Steve wasn't able to run in the trials and therefore the games ... This is the man that had run Valery Borzov donw from behind in the 4x1 at the US v Soviet dual in 1975 ( I was there) ... Came from several meters down to blow by him and finish about 3 meters up (and turned to look at Borzov in the process) ... Williams came back to win the inaugual World Cup 100 in 1977 but spent the next few years focusing on the 200 as the explosion of the 100 continued to hurt his hamstring ... Many begged him to move up to the 400 (he ran 44.8 as a freshman with only sprint training) but was determined to make it in the short sprints ... He had unlimited potential racked by injury ...
Ivory Crockett was done in by his own fame ... After running the 9.0 he was through as once it was obvious he could'nt duplicate it he had difficulty getting into races !!!
NONE of these really ever had a shot at gettign to their potential !!!!
Others in the time frame you mentioned ...
James Sanford .. 9.88 with 2.3w / 10.02 legal ... Only ran for a few seasons ... Injured a hamstring at NCAA's ... Never recovered and later turned to drugs ...
Mel Lattany ... 9.96 in 1984 lead the world and was fastaer than Carl Lewis !!! Injury similar ot Williams before the Trials ... Not looking to 1988 left the sport and tried football ...
Stanley Floyd was running like a house a fire ... 10.03 by age 20 ... Was convince he could play football and like John Capel left the sport ... REturned a couple of years later bulked up and never the same ...
Willie Gault .. 10.10 ... Simply left to play football as a 1st round draft pick ... Same for Curtis Dickey 10.11, Ron Brown 10.06 (and a frequent early conquerer of Carl Lewis), and Mike Miller 10.11 and Johnny Jones 10.15 ... None of these ran past the age of 21 !!!!
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jeffh
Water Boy
Joined: 14 Apr 2002
Posts: 47
Location: NC
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| Posted: Mon Sep 09, 2002 3:38 pm Post subject: |
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Before the subject is dropped I would like to say a few more things about R.P. Williams.
Williams began his coaching career in 1899 at Tufts College,Mass.A year later he was tested by the famous anthropometrist,DR. Dudley Allen Sargent,at Havard University.Jim Thorpe said "Williams is the fastest sprinter who ever lived."
Here is a summary of his athletic and gymnastic accomplishments:
100 Yard dash 9.0 (three times);100 Meter dash 9 4/5;mile run 4 min 25 sec;running broad jump 26 ft. 01/2in;vertical jump 34.9 in;running high kick 10 ft 3in;standing jump off one foot 9 ft. 6 in.;shot put(16 lbs) 47 ft 9 in.;(12 lbs) 57 ft 3 in;circling bases(baseball) 12 seconds flat; chinning the bar , 48 times;dipping on paralle bars 55 times;
Here is somthing of interest;
All-time men's best 100m
wind-assisted
1 9.69A +5.7 Obadele Thompson BAR 30.03.76 1 El Paso 13.04.1996
2 9.78 +5.2 Carl Lewis USA 01.07.61 1 Indianapolis 16.07.1988
3 9.79 +5.3 André Cason USA 20.01.69 1h4 Eugene 16.06.1993
3 9.79 +4.5 André Cason USA 20.01.69 1s1 Eugene 16.06.1993
3 9.79 +2.9 Maurice Greene USA 23.07.74 1 Eugene 31.05.1998
6 9.80 +4.3 Carl Lewis USA 01.07.61 1q2 Tokyo 24.08.1991
7 9.83 +7.1 Leonard Scott USA 19.01.80 1r1 Knoxville 09.04.1999
8 9.84 +3.3 Maurice Greene USA 23.07.74 1h2 New Orleans 19.06.1998
8 9.84 +3.5 Maurice Greene USA 23.07.74 1 Eugene 30.05.1999
10 9.85 +5.3 Leroy Burrell USA 21.02.67 2h4 Eugene 16.06.1993
10 9.85 +4.8 André Cason USA 20.01.69 1 Eugene 17.06.1993
10 9.85 +4.8 Dennis Mitchell USA 20.02.66 2 Eugene 17.06.1993
10 9.85A +3.0 Frank Fredericks NAM 02.10.67 1 Nairobi 18.05.2002
14 9.86 +5.2 Dennis Mitchell USA 20.02.66 2 Indianapolis 16.07.1988
14 9.86 +2.5 Leroy Burrell USA 21.02.67 1 Austin 07.04.1994
16 9.87 +11.2 William Snoddy USA 06.12.57 1 Dallas 01.04.1978
16 9.87 +4.9 Calvin Smith USA 08.01.61 1s2 Indianapolis 16.07.1988
16 9.87 +5.2 Calvin Smith USA 08.01.61 3 Indianapolis 16.07.1988
16 9.87 +2.4 Michael Marsh USA 04.08.67 1 Walnut 20.04.1997
20 9.88 +2.3 James Sanford USA 27.12.57 1 Westwood 03.05.1980
20 9.88 +5.2 Albert Robinson USA 28.11.64 4 Indianapolis 16.07.1988
20 9.88 +3.1 André Cason USA 20.01.69 1 Modesto 16.05.1992
20 9.88 +5.3 Maurice Greene USA 23.07.74 1 Austin 08.04.1995
20 9.88 +4.0 Donovan Bailey CAN 16.12.67 1r1 Duisburg 12.06.1996
20 9.88 +4.9 Tim Harden USA 27.01.74 1 New Orleans 20.06.1998
20 9.88 +3.1 Bruny Surin CAN 12.07.67 1 Winnipeg 26.06.1999
20 9.88 +4.5 Coby Miller USA 19.10.76 1 Auburn 01.04.2000
20 9.88 +2.1 Maurice Greene USA 23.07.74 1 Bruxelles 25.08.2000
20 9.88 +2.4 Maurice Greene USA 23.07.74 1 Palo Alto 22.06.2002
30 9.89 +4.2 Raymond Stewart JAM 18.03.65 1s1 Indianapolis 09.08.1987
30 9.89 +4.1 Frank Fredericks NAM 02.10.67 1q4 Tokyo 24.08.1991
30 9.89 +5.3 Raymond Stewart JAM 18.03.65 2 Austin 08.04.1995
30 9.89 +2.9 Michael Marsh USA 04.08.67 1 Walnut 14.04.1995
30 9.89 +2.9 Ato Boldon TRI 30.12.73 2 Eugene 31.05.1998
30 9.89 +2.4 Ato Boldon TRI 30.12.73 1 Stockholm 05.08.1998
30 9.89 +3.2 Ato Boldon TRI 30.12.73 1r2 Modesto 08.05.1999
30 9.89 +2.4 Tim Montgomery USA 28.01.75 2 Palo Alto 22.06.2002
38 9.90 +2.5 Carl Lewis USA 01.07.61 1 Walnut 28.04.1985
38 9.90 +5.2 Joe DeLoach USA 05.06.67 5 Indianapolis 16.07.1988
38 9.90 +2.87 Raymond Stewart JAM 18.03.65 1 Vigo 30.06.1989
38 9.90 +4.3 Linford Christie GBR 02.04.60 2q2 Tokyo 24.08.1991
38 9.90 +4.8 Carl Lewis USA 01.07.61 3 Eugene 17.06.1993
38 9.90 +7.1 Kenny Brokenburr USA 29.10.68 2r1 Knoxville 09.04.1999
38 9.90 +2.8 Michael Marsh USA 04.08.67 1r3 Walnut 16.04.2000
45 9.91 +5.28 Robert Hayes USA 20.12.42 1s1 Tokyo 15.10.1964
45 9.91 +2.1 Calvin Smith USA 08.01.61 1 Karl-Marx-Stadt 09.07.1982 |
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Conway
Olympic Medalist
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Posts: 3570
Location: Northen California
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| Posted: Tue Sep 10, 2002 7:31 am Post subject: |
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What I can't understand is if this guy was so good at everything, why did he not have an athletic career of any kind ??? Why go directly to coaching ?? What age aws he when he began coaching ??? Did he ever do anything other than the purported competitions while coaching ??? And how good were his athletes ??
Conway |
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jeffh
Water Boy
Joined: 14 Apr 2002
Posts: 47
Location: NC
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| Posted: Tue Sep 10, 2002 8:31 am Post subject: |
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| Conway wrote: | What I can't understand is if this guy was so good at everything, why did he not have an athletic career of any kind ??? Why go directly to coaching ?? What age aws he when he began coaching ??? Did he ever do anything other than the purported competitions while coaching ??? And how good were his athletes ??
Conway |
I agree with you.I've had that book for twenty years and have always been somewhat fascinated and skeptical about Williams.But seeing the
times in more than one book and seeing his different sprints(50y,60y,100y,100M) coinciding with what they should be makes it more
believable.
Did you ever hear about the 9.69A Obadele Thompson wind assisted 100 meters? |
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Dan
Chief Pontificator
Joined: 22 Mar 1999
Posts: 9334
Location: Salem, OR
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| Posted: Tue Sep 10, 2002 8:46 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Did you ever hear about the 9.69A Obadele Thompson wind assisted 100 meters? |
I heard about it at the time it happened, and unless further research was done after the fact, it's technically incorrect to say it was wind assisted. The way it was reported is that there were "hurricane force" winds that day, but that no wind guage was present. Given he was basically a 10-flat guy at the time, it's quite reasonable to assume it was a beneficial tailwind, but for all we know, it could have been swirling during that particular race.
Dan |
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jeffh
Water Boy
Joined: 14 Apr 2002
Posts: 47
Location: NC
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| Posted: Tue Sep 10, 2002 9:05 am Post subject: |
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| What about the 9.78 by Carl Lewis? |
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Conway
Olympic Medalist
Joined: 25 Aug 2001
Posts: 3570
Location: Northen California
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| Posted: Tue Sep 10, 2002 9:32 am Post subject: |
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I am familiar with both the 9.69 and the 9.78 ... I actually witnessed the 9.78 ... The '88 Trials were the fastest meet in history with many many sub 10s being run and several sub 9.90s ...
Dan is correcct about the 9.69 ... Not sure where the wind reading came from as there was none reported due to "lack of wind gage ... But the site you got the information from is very accurate so he may have found a wind reading some where ...
As for Mr Williams, it is hard for me to take any of his marks seriously unless they were monitored marks - as in produced in some sort of competition with officials timing and measuring them ... Otherewise they are just a story being told ... And as of yet I have not heard anything to indicate he did anything in any sort of formalized setting ... And the fact the information appeared in a book means nothing ... The information found in books is routinely invalidated ...
Conway |
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Justin
Varsity
Joined: 08 Oct 2001
Posts: 312
Location: London
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| Posted: Sat Sep 14, 2002 7:00 am Post subject: |
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No hand times at all should be compared to auto times because tha margin for error is so huge. So all those 9.9s from the 1970s are nothing more than footnotes. Fun, but footnotes.
In the first half of the century most watches timed to fifths of a second, there was no standard for conditions (track slope, officials, wind, starting) and no proper training for officials.
The times attributed to pro sprinters in the late 19th century and early 20th are further complicated by the hype and dishonesty which went with promoting entertainment (which is what sprint matches were before the 1912 establishment of the IAAF).
Conclusion - R.P Williams was no doubt very quick but the times he is credited with are nonsense. The IAAF's definitive WR progression book doesn't even bother mentioning him in the supplement of "suspect times" which they list alongside the confirmed records.
My vote for saddest loss in the modern era is Sanford - that 9.88 at sea level with 2.3m/s wind stands out as one of the great runs, alongside the 9.91 Calvin Smith ran in 1982 with a 2.1 wind. Both were far superior to either Hines' 9.95A or Smith's 9.93A WRs.
Justin |
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Justin
Varsity
Joined: 08 Oct 2001
Posts: 312
Location: London
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| Posted: Sat Sep 14, 2002 7:06 am Post subject: |
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I always understood that the wind guage when Thompson ran 9.69 only measured up to 5.0m/s and that it was windier than that so the actual measure is uncertain.
Interesting run though. Conditions or not, it's a metre faster than anyone else has ever run and plenty of people have run at altitude and had strong winds.
Justin |
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Dan
Chief Pontificator
Joined: 22 Mar 1999
Posts: 9334
Location: Salem, OR
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| Posted: Sat Sep 14, 2002 7:35 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | I always understood that the wind guage when Thompson ran 9.69 only measured up to 5.0m/s and that it was windier than that so the actual measure is uncertain. |
If that's the case, it would certainly explain how a number has since been assigned to the "unknown" wind conditions.
I, too, always thought it was an intriguing race, partly because I tend to dismiss wind as one of many variables, most of which go unaccounted for in the record books -- track surface, temperature, altitude, level of competition, etc. People run bad under great conditions and great under bad conditions, so ignoring an incredible 9.69 hides from the fact that times like that just could be humanly possible.
Dan |
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Conway
Olympic Medalist
Joined: 25 Aug 2001
Posts: 3570
Location: Northen California
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| Posted: Sat Sep 14, 2002 2:06 pm Post subject: |
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I've found it interesting that of all the available ocnditions that could affect a sprint, that the wind reading has always been considered the most important one ... I have alwalys found altitude and temperature more important than wind - which more often than not can be a hinderance even when it is a following tell ...
Conway |
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