Run-Down Forums

[Dan]

[Conway]

I would think because of the world wide exposure of the sport ... We don't take much stock in the World Jr Championships ... But the rest of the world does ... And there should be some method of comparison ...

Don't get me wrong I feel the same way you do about the records themselves ... It's just that I do see a need for their existence ... Perhaps there could be a way to make them more "exact" ???

[Dan]

I think that as long as an athlete is from a country that demonstrates no means of accurately keeping birth records, they should not be considered for age group record status. Odds are much less an individual will be wronged in that case than true juniors around the world wronged in the current situation.

Are the World Junior Championships really a big deal around the world? It seems like they're always tucking them away in South America or some other international athletics hot spot...

Dan

[Dan]

Another thought, lest Justin think I'm too cynical... I look at World Junior Records much like drug testing -- neither serves any real purpose (in practice) and opens the sport up to a ton of opportunities for negative coverage and perceptions.

Dan

[Conway]

Hmmm ... I that out of the way places are chosen in an effort to build the sport in those areas ...

As far as individuals being wronged, I would think that would mostly be Americans as I beleive the rest of the world overall is much less stringent about those things ...

Personally I think the cut off should be 20 years of age ... A nice round number and truly sort of a jumping off point for adulthood .. And I think it would eliminate a lot of the need for people to cheat regarding age ... Or better yet divide "juniors into 2 classifications - 15 and under AND 16 to 20 ... Of course you still have to keep those two separate ...

[Dan]

[Distance_Guru]

I've been avoiding this discusion but here are my two cents. Junior records are all well and good but they are completely unimportant. First off because very few of the Junior record holders live up to that level as adults. Sure there are exceptions Jim Ryun comes to mind and although I don't know if he held a Junior record Bruny Surin is third on the all time top ten list in the 100 meters. (Imagine my surprise, after not knowing who he was a few weeks ago.) But the runners that hold the world junior records almost never go on to hold world senior records. This could be due to them being either A) older than they said they were and already near there peak physically or B) because they simply matured faster than other people there age and again were closer to there peak as opposed to being just much more talented
_________________
Time is the fire in which we burn

[Justin]

Junior records may not be important but junior competition is - very much so

Every single UK athlete you see or hear of performaing well has come through the UK's junior programme. They get good competition, managed progress and a gradual exposure to the tough world of competition. Under 23 competition is similarly important, giving those newly emerged from the junior ranks a stepping stone alongside brutal senior competition.

Championships are an important part of this. We (in the UK) take the World and European Junior Champs very seriously as a major stepping stone. Mark Lewis-Francis turned down selection for the 2000 Olympics to concentrate on the World Juniors - that's how important they are.

The effect has been that many talented young people who would otherwise drop out of the sport at 20 or 21 (like 99% of all US university competitors) are eased into the senior competition and so are motivated to stay while young promise is turned into competitive reality.

And records are a part of this. Everyone wants to know how their performances measure up. Clearly if age groups are important for competition then records are an important benchmark. We have to have records for every category of competition.

As for the age break, well it does make some sense to stick to age 19 at date of competiton but in practice this would cause chaos. Imagine a runner born on 1 July, who is a junior for the first half of the season but not the second; who wins their national junior title in June but can't compete in the European juniors in August. This would provide an even greater temptation to cheat - just move a d.o.b a few months.

I also think that the concerns being expressed here over age fraud are exaggerated. It's patronising in the extreme to assume that only the US and Western countries have adequate birth registration - this may have been the case 20 yrs ago, but not now. There is no reason to doubt the veracity of a Chinese athlete's birthdate.

And even if you're determined not to believe his age, just be excited that there is a new, 13.12 talent from an emerging athletics nation. He still ran 13.12, whether he's 15 or 25. The 110mH could use some new blood.

Justin

[Conway]

Justin I am curious ... Is there any kind of High School system in place or is everything dependent on the Junior system ???

I do find it interesting that most of the great prodigies that hav ebeen produced here in the states have been brought up in "club" systems (Obea Moore being a prime example) ... Equally interesting is that many of htese young people do "worse" once they try to transfer to a collegiate system (Monique Henderson being this last season's version of this and while Webb didn't come through the club system his relationship with his HS coach was similar) ...

Once upon a time (many many years ago) when I was s kid I ran with a club team (that's how I started with some friends who invited me to run) ... and my greatest improvements (with the exception of my senior year in HS) came through the club ...

So I am curious as to the extent that HS systems are in place in other countries ...

[Justin]

Clubs are the backbone of UK athletics - all athletes are members of a club and all cut their training and competitive teeth at club level from early teenage years onwards. Only the elite tend to form their own training groups and even then they retain a club affiliation.

However, there is also a national structure for competition from at least mid teens. There are (overstretched, underfunded) coaches responsible for national development and junior international competition for those with most promise.

Someone like Mark Lewis-Francis has done almost all his coaching and competition for his club but he has been setting national age records since age 11 and has been nurtured through schools competition, age-group and junior internationals, all culminating with the world junior champs. That's why he found it so easy to choose thw WJC over the OG in 2000 - the WJ had been his target for years.

Probably as important a development in recent years has been a tier of under 23 competition at national and European level, allowing those fresh from the junior ranks the chance to compete against their peers a few times a year rather than just be dropped into harsh senior competition. The reduced drop-out rate of promising juniors is a major contributor to the UK's continuing success at t&f.

Justin

[Dan]

The club setup would definitely seem to place more emphasis on junior competition than does the collegiate system here. That probably affects our relative perceptions of its importance...

What's the significance of age 23 in Europe, specifically regarding the u23 competitions? The only thing I can associate it with is it's close to the age when people typically graduate from college. That and it happens to be my favorite number.

Dan

[Justin]

Under 23 is chosen just because it's a few years above junior level, so as to give athletes in their first years as seniors a few competitons a year limited to their peers. It's only an annual national u-23 championships, a few international matches and occassional European Champs (not sure of frequency, I assume bi-annual).

Graduation in the UK is 20 or 21 but in parts of Europe it can be later (eg mid to late 20s in Germany), so that's not a major factor. University competition is next to irrelevant in the UK - student athletes compete for their clubs (except for Loughborough, a specialist sports college).

Justin

[Conway]

Sounds like a much more nurturing system for the athlete ... Especially given that they are able to compete against their peers for a much longer periof of time ... Which I would think would only help to increase one's confidence level which in this psort is a large part of the battle ... It also provides an inborn (right word?) developmental system - something sorely lacking here in the states ...

Here once you are out of high school it is basically over unless you are a star and able to "shine" on the collegiate level .. Otherwise you are in a lesser DI school or DII/DIII where (don't get me wrong) there is good coaching available, but you are generally NOT expected to do anything beyond graduation ... And personally I htink there is a lot of talent at that levele that never gets to rise ...

[Justin]

Don't think I'm painting too rosy a picture of the sport in the UK. While it's true that the large majority of international UK athletes have been nurtured through the juniors, it's also the case that many promising juniors are not brought through and disappear.

And of course once into the senior ranks the athlete must perform to keep getting funding and support.

There is also a very serious problem with medical facilities for athletes in the UK - basically, there are none. We have few specialists and those there are are expensive and busy with elite athletes. The UK track and field team has always had an extraordinary number of injury problems. In part the poor weather and facilities don't help, but there is no real preventative medicine to stop problems occuring and little guidance when injries do occur. Jason Gardener, Kelly Holmes, Dean Macey, Steve Backley, Katherine Merry, Mark Richardson, Iwan Thomas and Ashia Hanson have all had their careers blighted by injury - all might have won world level titles by now but for recurring problems.

T&F may look like a big sport here from your US perspective, but it's still a minority pursuit, way way way behind football and suffering from consequent lack of funding. Failure to win Olympic golds is seen as a national disgrace, yet athletes who may win those golds are hampered by primitive facilities and lack of funding. A medium sized US university has better track facilities, better winter training facilities and more money than all but the largest clubs in the UK.

Justin

[Justin]

No idea why it posted that twice - Dan, perhaps you'd like to delete the spare post and this one. Thanks.

Justin