Run-Down Forums

[Hammer]

How Much does the social and Economic Environment play on an Areas' Success in Sport?

Can good athletes come from anywhere in the World? exe. Will there soon be a group of elite male distance runners in the US or a group of elite Line Backers from Kenya??

[Distance_Guru]

I know that this is just begging to restart that whole Kenyan economic arguement again but there is a relationship between the economic setting a person comes up in and what sports they are more likely to be good at. One of my favorite examples of this is boxing. Throughout the history of boxing most of the good boxers have come from the ranks of the poor and lower middle class. In this country we at once time had a large number of Irish boxers after and influx of poor Irish people immigratted to the country, as the Irish population in the country began to move up the social and economic latter in the country the numbers of Irish boxers decreased, then came black boxers and next Puerto Ricans. (Wait a minute I think I remeber hearing Chris Rock do a bit on this in one of his specials. ) Anyway he's right. Now can there be a great boxer from a well off family, sure, it's just the likelyhood of that happening is lower than with a less well off family. We are really dealing with exposure to a sport. If you are in the lower class you probably will never become a great polo player even if you are the most geneticlly gifted person in the world. Along the same lines a rich kid will probably never become a the greatest trainer of fighting cocks even if he does have a gift for it. And I don't see Kenya producing a great linbacker since they don't hav American rules football in Kenya.

On the other hand there are many factors that make an athlete. Genetics being a big one. Will the US ever produce another Olympic gold medalist in a mens distance running event, I'd say yes. Will we produce as many as Kenya or Ethiopia, I'd say no.
_________________
Time is the fire in which we burn

[Hammer]

I have as much hope for the US regaining some respect in Male Distance Running as anyone; but I don't believe we are close to achieving that goal. I don't think that participation in a sport guarantees success.

As far as sports in general are concerned the US is @ the top in most aspects. The few sports that we do not dominate or compet at the highest level seem to be Male Endurance Sports. (yes there are others)

What are the major factors? Are they related to the cultural environment of the US?

I am not going to argue about economics I want to discuss the basic nature of Americans in relation to those nations that are successful in Male Distance Running.

[Distance_Guru]

I think it is more like three sports where the US just isn't competitive. Cross Country skiing (which simply is only a big sport in three or four countries in northern Europe), Mens soccer, and male distance running. You seem to be going in the direction of the US not haveing a cultural enviornment that is conducive to endurace sports. But to say that were not competitive endurance sports isn't true. We are as good as any other country in cycling and from what I have been told were the best country for swimming at all distances. And our tri-athletes are also very competitive.

In male distance running we are simply in the middle of a drought. We will come out of it. When and how good when we get there are still to be determined.
_________________
Time is the fire in which we burn

[Guest]

Well if it is not environment and it is not economics then what is it?????

Is it Racial decent???

DG or anyone else- How many of the top 5 male times from 100m to 10k hav been achieved by someone who is not African or of African decent??

As far as track is concearned is the US dominating the sprints becaues they are dominated by African American??? (Who is the fastest non African American Sprinter) Is the US having trouble in Male distance running because the US is dominated by white distance runners.

[Hammer]

[Distance_Guru]

If you are looking for a single factor in all of these cases then I think you're out of luck. I would say genetics plays a big part, exposure plays a part, and your societies economic situation plays a part.

If you're not geneticlly gifted enough to be a world class athlete then you have no hope. If you never get exposed to a sport then you obviously will never have a chance to be any good at it. And having an economic and social situation that enables you to make an attempt at being really good is also key. Take away any one of these things and a persons ability to be a great athlete in any sport is lost. The US has some great advantages in some of these areas and some great disadvantages in other areas, when compaired to other countries.

The fastest non-African American would probably be Franky Fredricks, but I doubt that was what you wanted to know I believe the fastest non-African would probably be Konstandinos Kederis, from Greece. He won the Olympic 200m gold and was also rated by track and field news as the #1 200 meter runner in both 2000 and 2001.
_________________
Time is the fire in which we burn

[Dan]

Mennea & Borzov would have to rank as the fastest non-blacks, with Kederis by far the most notable of the current lot.

Dan

[Hammer]

So the next question is: Are Africans and people of African decent geneticly more gifted than the rest of the world??

And is the US behind in Male distance running because of our lack of African Americans in the sport???

[Distance_Guru]

I would have to say yes and yes.

Although there is no reason why a white person can't become a great runner, Africans (for sprints west, for distance east and north) tend to have traits that lead to greater running speeds with greater frequency in their population than that of asians or europeans.

And it goes to figure that if your population has a greater frequency you have a theoretical advantage if your population has a lesser frequency then you have a theoretical disadvantage.
_________________
Time is the fire in which we burn

[Dan]

As much as I dislike the repercussions of that answer, I have to agree.

Dan

[Conway]

OK ... I have to chime in .. Been trying not to but ....

Let's start with fastest Non-African/African American (ie Blacks):

10.00 - Marion Woronin, Poland
10.00 - Robson da Silva, Brazil
10.00 - Koji Ito, Japan
10.01 - Pietro Mennea, Italy
10.02 - Vladislav Dologodin, Ukraine
10.02 - Nobuharu Asahara, Japan
10.03 - Konstantin Ruak, Ukraine
10.05 - Shingo Seutsugu, Japan
10.07 - Valeri Borzov, Ukraine
10.07 - Jean-Olivier Zirignon, Ivory Coast
10.08 - Geir Moen, Norway
10.08 - Carlo Boccarini, Italy
10.08 - Matthew Quinn, South Africa
10.08 - Roland Nemeth, Hungary
10.09 - Vitaly Savin, Kzakistan
10.09 - Sergy Osovich, Ukraine

This is a list of sub 10.10 performers ... Anyone ocmpeting at this level has a realistic shot of making World and Olympics finals and being competitive ... Note that in MOST majors 10.0x gets bronze and is in 4th and/or 5th place ...

Now, I posted this list for a few reasons ... One to show that Non-American whites have done far better at sprinting than American whites have done at distance running ... Dan you have the tables, but I would equate sub 10.10 with sub 3:50 or sub 13:10 on the scale of competition ...Not sure what "the tables" say ...

Next if you look at the list you will see a preponderence of individuals from Ukraine, Japan, and Italy ... Why is that important ?? Well to me it says that these people place an emphaasis on speed ... That running fst is important to them ... And therefofre they find a way to train to get there ... They have developed "systems" to get their people there !!!! And I think that that is a very important KEY to the conversation ...

Are blacks physically superior to whites ??? Sticky question ... I think everyone is superior to everyone else in their own way !!!! For every advantage that any individual has they have weaknesses ... And there are other individuals that have other advantages ...

Now I will say that I do think that different groups of people are more predisposed than others to certain things ... For example I would say that blacks are more predisposed than whites to explosive events ... But I would then run right around and say that whites are more predisposed to endurance events ... But having said that means you just may birng more endurance to a sprint and do very well (such as Roger Black in the 400 or Pietro Mennea in the 200 or Valery Borzov in the 100 & 200) or more speed to a distance event (such as Gebresselassie, Ngeny, Tergat) ...

What I am ultimately saying is that yes there are inherent differences in people ... BUT SO WHAT ?? That doesn't preclude anyone from becoming elite at anything ... Makes it easier for some and harder for others .... But THAT is the nature of life itself ... Some people have a harder time becomign doctors or laywers than others ... Doesn't mean they can't succeed ... Or that they can't eventually become the best at it ...

I'm a sprinter (at least at heart anymore) ... I learned to run the 800 so I could help my teams (high school and college) in the 4 x 8 ... I wasn't great, but competitive ... Worked hard enough to do that ... Maybe could have been better if I had worked at it ... Ran cross country one season cause I wanted to ... Worked hard enough to do it ok ... Ran a 10 mile road race once ... Trained hard enough to do it .. Cause I wanted to (bet with a distance runnign friend) ... I'm a stock broker ... A black stock broker where "black brokers" are few and far between .. Why ?? Cause I wanted to be ... I hold every license you can hold ... Am the only broker in my office licensed to do commodities ... Bragging ... No ... Just trying to make a point ... Humans - of all types - can achieve anything they want ... We all have strengths and weaknesses and have ot learn how to use them to our advantage !!!!!

In case anyhone hasn't figured out how I feel about American distance runners here it is in a nut shell ... Too many excuses ... Too easy to say the others are just NATURALLY better so we can't catch up ... But if the Spaniards can compete ... If the British can compete ... Then so can WE ... I will concede one thing ... And that is that I agree that there is a societal reason owhy US distance runners have gotten knocked off the top of the distance heap ... And it is softenss of mind ... When its easy we kick ass and talk shit ... When it isn't we talk about how someone else has the advantage of (insert excuse here) ... Be it economics or they run to school every day or they don't have to get a job and make money like we do ... Or SOMETHING ...

Well the Japanese produce great marathoners AND great sprinters ... At least THEY are competitive on both extremes of the scale !!!! AND they have an economy very similar to ours ... THe thing about the Japanese is THEY believe they can do anything ... And THEY are tenacious at whatever they do .... WE used to be tenacious too ... But somewehre along the way .... Well you fill in the blank ...

[Distance_Guru]

That was one heck of a post.

I like what you said. And I agree with almost all of it. The only real problem that I have is that your post makes it seems like US distance runners, or white Americans in general are just throwing up excuse after excuse for why they can't compete with Africans. Now what I'm wondering is where do we draw the line between a legitimate reason and an excuse. And really I have never heard any of the American "contenders" to compete with Africans or African American using these as excuses. I've heard them almost exclusively used in intelligent discusions about why people of African descent are currently dominating tack and field.

This may be a little off topic but, there are a couple of excellent articles on this subject in the guest articles section of this web site. I highly reconmmend it to anyone that hasn't read them.
_________________
Time is the fire in which we burn

[Dan]

[Micah Ward]

Thorny issues gentlemen.

I have to lean more toward Conway's position than anywhere else. I too believe that most people can achieve what they want with enough will power and hard work. Now how does that relate to American distance runners?

Look at our women. Regina, Suzy (even with the flakyness), Nicole, Drossin all seem to have a drive and even a little arrogance that I don't see with the men. Lynn Jennings had it.

The last time we saw that kind of drive and confidence with the men was the days of Pre, Bill Rodgers and Frank Shorter. When was the last time that an American male ran himself into a heat stroke the way Alberto Salazar did at Falmouth? Was it smart? No...but Salazar was going to win that day no matter what!!!!!!!!! Who runs with that intensity now?

The men are definitely in a rut and unfortunately I don't see it changing until Webb and Ritz mature. And that is assuming they can be the ones to do it.