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Kishan Gill
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 13, 2005 2:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It was clear that scales failed to release the baton and it all resulted in an all too familiar theme in american relays. They either win big or fumble the baton. To be fair the Russian and bahamas womens team didn't fair any better.

Xking had hoped for a record but I dismissed that chance as I was not aware that greene was taking part. He may have been right had they managed to qualify.
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Conway
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 14, 2005 7:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lots going on ... Just back from vacation ... but here are a few of my thoughts ...

US 4x1 ... No excuse ... Scales didn't let the baton go but why was he on the track anyway ??? Greene on anchor when he was going to run second ... Scott on second when he was going to lead off ... Running that squad was a waste of time from the start !!!! We set ourselves up for disaster - and it happened ...

Hurdles ... Doucoure is the next WR holder ... I like Liu ... Like Doucoure too ... I think Ladji has more overall speed ... Liu the better technician ... But I think both will take the event to a new level ...

200 women ... Felix is THE star of the event ... Campbell is not in her league ... No one is right now ... At 19 years old I see Felix heading into elite territory - becoming the next Torrence and running all three sprints at an elite level ...

200 men ... Gatlin is tough but Gay gave the race away ... Never ran his turn ... Spent too much time watching GAtlin ... Spearmon was done in by inside lane ...

400 men - Wariner will break the record (barring injury) before he retires ... And it won't be too long from now ... I expect him to be consistent at 43.5 range next year ... After that it will just take the right race ... HE is SO disciplined ... He just keeps putting together a stronger and stronger race ...

Today the men's 4x4 will run at least 2:56 ... Probably faster ... Wink
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Kishan Gill
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 14, 2005 8:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can't see why the final quartet do not run through the heats. Gatlin could have done without a rest and possibly avoided the cockup in the first place.
I fully concur that changing positions serves no purpose other than a recipe for disaster.

Wariner has and will continue to establish himself as one of the greatest quartermilers ever but I am still sceptical about his ability to break the record unless it's at altitude. 43.18 is no walk in the park.

Felix I agree can make a big impact in the 400m . As for records it's another subject for another day. But I will add that they should nullify all marks set by GDR runners and by Florence Griffith-joyner and probably Kratochilova (If I spelt it correctly) too.
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Conway
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 14, 2005 8:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here is why I see Wariner breaking the record ... He already has enough speed to do it ... The reason why most quatermilers do not run that fast is because they lack the discipline ... Most go out faster than their systems can handle and then struggle in the stretch ... What MJ learned to do was harness his speed - and use the third 100 of the race to set up the finish ...

Wariner has already learned how to do this ... He has a more fluid style than MJ did ... And he is MORE disciplined ... It will just be a matter of him learning to put together the right combination of splits ... And I think he can do that ...
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Micah Ward
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 14, 2005 8:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I know this is primarily a sprint thread but the top US female in the marathon was Turena Lane-Johnson. She was an assistant cross country coach at our local college and ran with the local running club on Saturday mornings. Even though she relocated last year we still consider her one of club members. Very Happy

Radcliffe notches another big win with Nderba second. I wonder what the temp was because there times were way off what they are capable of.
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Kishan Gill
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 14, 2005 11:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think the temperatures were in the low twenties celcius which would have suited radcliffe and thankfully helped salvage some self-respect for the british team, the worst in history.
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Kishan Gill
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 14, 2005 11:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

conways arguments are valid in underlining why wariner could break the record. He is being trained and managed on probably the best training regimen and race tactics and not to mention mental race preperations by none other than theworld record holder and his coach.

Wariner does have a contrasting style to MJ in that it is more textbook running as opposed to MJ's style which was unique to him.

Bear in mind though that it took MJ over a decade of international competion to break 43.29. I believe he dipped 43.5 three or four times in his career and this is a man who ran a 19.3 200m. I think to run those splits requires superhuman effort and although wariner or someone else may come within a reasonable distance to it , it may take more than another decade before it is challenged.

I won,t hold my breath though!

However my analysis is based more on statistics and the law of averages than any scientific approach based on technique and training methods.
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Conway
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 14, 2005 3:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hmmm ... I understand where you are coming from ... But let me interject a few things ...

First of all MJ may have set the WR in the 200 but that does not make him a 19.32 sprinter ... Matter of fact he was "only" a 19.9 sprinter after the record ... He had a 19.71A time just once before he retired and we know the effects of altitude ... Other than that he only broke 20 a few times total - with the best of those being 19.89 ... My point here is that MJ was only a hair above average in the 200 when he was running his best 400's ...

If you watch MJ's fastest races you'll see he "struggled" in the straight - relatively speaking ... Wariner, on the other hand, is much stronger in the stretch ...

You could also see that MJ had to really focus to maintain that first 200 - then push the third 100 ... Wariner, on the other hand seems to do so effortlessly ...

Wariner reminds me of a modern day Juantorena - just has the race mastered ... MJ HAD to run fast 400's regularly to have his rhythm right when he needed it ... Wariner seems to be able to "dial in" any sort of race he needs ... HE conserves much more energy when necessary ... Yet seem to have "IT" when it is needed ...

I know this will seem blasphemous but Wariner is a much better 400 man than MJ ... Consider that he is about 5 years ahead of MJ's schedule !!!! And rapidly improving ...
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Dan
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 14, 2005 4:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Bear in mind though that it took MJ over a decade of international competion to break 43.29.

I think MJ would have broken it a lot sooner if he hadn't bulked up so much for the 200. Wariner has a very efficient build and doesn't appear likely to focus on the shorter stuff, so he shouldn't have that to worry about.

Watching the broadcasts this weekend, I couldn't help but feel the meet is stretched out too long. There was barely enough material to fill the two 1-hour time slots yesterday and today... We end up with wheelchair races and vision impaired 200's, which I thought belonged in the Special Olympics. Confused I've never quite liked the spread out schedule having the men's and women's races on all different days, or the fact that the only marquee event on the last day is the marathon, and it really was underlined this time for some reason. I think they need to lop about 3 days off the 9 day schedule and forget about the double weekend slots.

Dan
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Kishan Gill
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 15, 2005 1:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wariner better tham MJ, wash your mouth out conway!

Joking aside, Watching wariner run you do notice how fluid and comfortable he seems than MJ but that may be because of the contrast in styles.

I was going to cite Watts as an example to back up my argument but Wariner is no one or two hit wonder.

The fact that Wariner is achieving sucess at a much earlier age does not necessarily mean he will be able to continue this later into his career.

There is no doubt that on the face of it if anyone can realistically break the record it is Wariner. He has the ability and the best coaching in the world going for him.

However I still think he will miss out. Wink

Or I'll eat my shoelaces!.
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Conway
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 15, 2005 3:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hope your shoe laces are chocolate or peppermint !!! LOL ...

Quincy was a better quartermiler than MJ too by the way !!! Q's problem is he wanted more money and went and tried football ... Football and track do NOT mix ... Even when you don't stay for long ... Something about it ... Ask Nehemiah, Capel and many others that have tried it but had trouble getting back to where they were on the track ... Watts ran the easiest 43.50 in history ... Had a 43.75 that should have been about 43.25 ... And had one of the best seasons in history in '92 !!!

Truth be known I think the 400 has been underdeveloped for a while ... Reynolds, Lewis and Everett were the first of what should have been many sub 44 sprinters ... Quincy finally understood it ... MJ finally understood it ... And as soon as a few more real sprinters man up, the ranks of sub 44 guys will blossom ... Its overdue ...

Look at the guys getting near 44.00 WITHOUT real speed ... Rock, Williamson, Christopher, Brown ... People are finally figuring the race out !! Wariner is going to be to the 400 what Kipketer was to the 800 ... He is going to take the record down to around 42.85 ... And in the process brin many under 44 !!!!

You heard it here first !!! Wink
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Dan
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 15, 2005 6:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rock has respectable speed.

http://www.raceberryjam.com/archives/ncodmp04.htm#2

I don't know if that's his fastest, but it was run as a tune-up race late season, so it probably wasn't his peak effort over the distance. I would guess he can run 20.40, which would have made this year's World Championships final.

Dan
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Conway
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2005 4:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If I'm not mistaken that's Rock's PR ... I think he might be able to run 20.60 ... But even so that is ok speed .... MJ under 20 ... Washington was 20.09, as was Everett ... Xavier Carter (who I think has the most potential of the youngsters if he will give it a shot) 20.02 and dropping ... Clement and Merritt both 20.40 indoors !!!

Rock's not near that kind of speed ... And it shows in his race as he has to maintain his speed better ... That's why he is deadly over the last part of the race ... He just keeps coming and coming and coming !!!! He, like Wariner, has figured out how to spread the speed out ... When a Clement or Carter or Merritt figure this out - WHOA !!!!
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Kishan Gill
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2005 5:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Do you feel clyde harts methods will be instrumental in raising the 400m to a new level. Are they being adopted by other coaches.

One of the key strategies in MJ and wariners race as you mentioned earlier is running a solid third 100m and thus setting up for a good position on the final straight with enough reserves left to carry it to the finish line due to the relaxed first 200m.

I don't have juantorenas splits but his style seemed to be almost to give it all from the gun and hold on as best in the final straight, which is pretty much what most quartermilers do. Juantorenas big frame and exceptional stride length was a big advantage that he was naturally blessed with.He also had the superior endurance because of his 800m strength.

This leads to another question. Is it a better to be a great 200m runner than an 800m to be outstanding in the middle race. Johnsons times clearly indicate that their is no substitute for speed for developing into a top 400m runner.

You mentioned watts who I forgot had moved to football. Recalling his 400m run in 92 you are quite right that it seemed so effortless and he did seem capable of much more.

One more thing I would like to add is that MJ's unique running style may actually be the key to being so consistent in his event. Maybe it has something to do with his biomechanics that has made him so great that running strategy could only do so much. The shorter strides and lower knee lift which up until than was completely contrary to proper sprinting technique may be the key in running so fast and expending less energy.

Saying that , it is plain that you cannot be taught to run like that. I suppose it was his physical makeup that made him run like that. Although he is 6 feet tall he did have a shorter leg to torso ratio than a typical runner.
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AM_Runner
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2005 6:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree it was big of him but I think they both messed that pass up... Scotts hand was all over the place whne recahing back fo rthe stick... I was surprised Scales even got it in his hand, after he did though unless he really felt it was slipping he should have let go (but I guess we will never know that) compare that to the womens passing which was done so nicely...
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