Run-Down Forums Forum Index Run-Down Forums

 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 
Run-Down Forums Forum Index
Sprint Central
The 4x1 in 2003
Post new topic   Reply to topic

Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Run-Down Forums Forum Index -> Sprint Central
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Dan
Chief Pontificator
Chief Pontificator


Joined: 22 Mar 1999
Posts: 9334
Location: Salem, OR

PostPosted: Sat Nov 02, 2002 12:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not saying it's right, just that many people instinctively do it. And I don't necessarily mean chaning the mark. A lot of the time it's just a matter of anticipating them hitting the mark before actually seeing it, or going when the back leg crosses instead of the front leg, or mixing up the audible "Go!" command with that of another team... There are a lot of things that can go wrong for a team that has practiced together very little, which is likely to be the case for the forseeable future with US championship squads.

Dan
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Conway
Olympic Medalist
Olympic Medalist


Joined: 25 Aug 2001
Posts: 3570
Location: Northen California

PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2002 12:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

But that is more a matter of discipline than anything else ... One reason why Tim has had problems in international relays and why Eastern boc countries have done so well at passing the baton .....
_________________
Conway
Speed Thrills
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Dan
Chief Pontificator
Chief Pontificator


Joined: 22 Mar 1999
Posts: 9334
Location: Salem, OR

PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2002 1:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think we're in agreement there. The more important question is how to develop that sort of discipline. Prior relay running experience is obviously one component, but I think an equally large one, if not bigger, is familiarity with the people you're running with. For most people, that takes time to develop.

Dan
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Distance_Guru
World Class
World Class


Joined: 09 Mar 2002
Posts: 1280
Location: Nebraska

PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2002 7:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dan wrote:
The more important question is how to develop that sort of discipline


The answer, as you alluded too, is practice. As simple as they seem baton passes are quite difficult (I imagine Conway will back me on that, since he's had more realy experience that myself). Getting the timing down is very difficult even for high school and college athletes and I would imagine the faster the athletes are the more difficult it becomes. Which would make it the most difficult for the fastest runners in the world. And the only effective way to overcome that difficulty is practice.
_________________
Time is the fire in which we burn
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Dan
Chief Pontificator
Chief Pontificator


Joined: 22 Mar 1999
Posts: 9334
Location: Salem, OR

PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2002 10:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's exactly my point. The faster you go, the smaller the margin of error, and the smaller the likelihood any given person has practiced wtih people at that speed. It takes a lot of reptition to get that timing, and I don't see the relay being important enough to US sprint stars who are chasing individual medals to devote that sort of practice time.

Dan
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Conway
Olympic Medalist
Olympic Medalist


Joined: 25 Aug 2001
Posts: 3570
Location: Northen California

PostPosted: Mon Nov 04, 2002 8:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree with everything except the part about the likihood of these guys running with anyone as fast before ... Nearly all have attended major university programs (Mo being the exception) ... So have run with quality speed on relays ... And if you notice, most of our relay personnel since say '84 have also come from the major sprint camps (at least half of each team) ... So these guys have also had experience with similar speed ...

And when I say similar speed, what you are looking at is get away speed and finishing speed - not top end speed .. And when you look at those two variables, typically if you are in the 10.20 range thoe speeds are going to be quite comparable ...
_________________
Conway
Speed Thrills
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Dan
Chief Pontificator
Chief Pontificator


Joined: 22 Mar 1999
Posts: 9334
Location: Salem, OR

PostPosted: Mon Nov 04, 2002 8:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quality collegiate teammates, yes, but that means 10.3 type guys usually, not 9.9 types. You may have a point about acceleration and finishing speed differing less than top end speed among relatively similar athletes; I'm not really sure...

Dan
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Conway
Olympic Medalist
Olympic Medalist


Joined: 25 Aug 2001
Posts: 3570
Location: Northen California

PostPosted: Mon Nov 04, 2002 9:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well if you look at your typical 100 meter race where you have say a differential of 9.95 for first and 10.30 for last what you will usually see is majoar separation taking place during the transition stage of the race ... A bit during the acceleration ... But primarily during the trasition to top end speed ... Little happens at the end ... And in the relay what we are dealing with as far as hand offs is get-a-way speed and finishing speed ... Wink
_________________
Conway
Speed Thrills
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Justin
Varsity
Varsity


Joined: 08 Oct 2001
Posts: 312
Location: London

PostPosted: Mon Nov 04, 2002 9:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd say 90% of all the 4x1 slip-ups I've seen were caused by the outgoing runner going off at the wrong moment and in 90% of those they go too early, leaving the tiring incoming runner behind. Result - drastic slowing to stay in the box, fumbled batons, dq'd.

I agree with Conway that the difference between an incoming runner with a 9.95 best and a 10.25 best is, while noticeable, not drastic enough to make much difference at the point of changeover. This is especially true of the 1st and 3rd changes, where the (tiring, slowing) incoming athlete has just run a bend and is not going as fast as they can (no matter what HSI claim about Jon Drummond).

Experience does count...often a young or inexperienced runner goes off too early - I used to run 4th leg and the temptation to go early is unbelievably difficult to resist. The incoming guy always looks like he's going faster than he is - in fact, the outgoing runner is up to the speed of the incoming one within 10m. And it's better to go too late than too early - at least the incoming guy can adjust (ie slow down). Not good, but you'll get the baton round.

A bigger problem for the US and UK is invariably egos - who runs what leg, who runs the heats etc. This has been the downfall of more US and UK teams than any other issue.

Justin
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Conway
Olympic Medalist
Olympic Medalist


Joined: 25 Aug 2001
Posts: 3570
Location: Northen California

PostPosted: Mon Nov 04, 2002 10:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Egos and camps (as in what camp do you belong too) have been the biggest problem for US squads ... Not wanting to work with guys you don't regularly train with became a big deal with SMTC and was "passed on" to HSI !!!

Given that everything goes well for the top athletes next year, the US would be looking at a squad containing both Greene and Montgomery ... A 9.78 and a 9.79 ... Current WR holder ... 3 time World gold medallist and Olympic medallist ... Question: Who anchors ???? Question #2: What do you do with the one that doesn't get the anchor spot ??? NOw for my money Greene anchors ... He has the experience and doesn't rattle ... Tim's experiences have been mixed and he was involved in the last major botch by a US foursome ...

Britain will be looking at something similar with Chambers and MLF ... If both are running around say 9.95 prior to the games who anchors - since that is what both have experience in doing ??? And what do you do with the other one ....

In 1972 the US had Hart and Robinson who had both run 9.9 at the Trials ... Hart anchored and Robinson didn't run the relay at all !!! No good on the turn and not a good stick man !!!! US substituted Larry Blakc from the 200 ... He ran lead off and the team ran 38.19 to set the then WR !!!
_________________
Conway
Speed Thrills
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Dan
Chief Pontificator
Chief Pontificator


Joined: 22 Mar 1999
Posts: 9334
Location: Salem, OR

PostPosted: Mon Nov 04, 2002 11:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tough questions. Going by experience, it seems Tim on 2nd and Maurice on anchor is the way to go, but I'm not sure how happy Tim will be with that arrangement... Also Tim's mental makeup seems questionable enough that it might be wise to limit him to only one handoff, and his start isn't consistently strong enough to make that leg 1...

Dan
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Conway
Olympic Medalist
Olympic Medalist


Joined: 25 Aug 2001
Posts: 3570
Location: Northen California

PostPosted: Mon Nov 04, 2002 2:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Exactly !!! Each on their game, MO is just more solid ... I'm not sure I put Tim on the relay tell you the truth ... Primarily because of the inconsistency ...

Here is athe gorup I would put out there if i were coach ...

1st leg - Jon Drummond - still going sub 10
2nd leg - Justin Gatlin - Experience on this leg .. No ego to worry about and superb stretch sprinter ...
3rd leg - Has developed a good turn running the 200 and is a demon in the relay
4th leg - Mo Greene .... presently none better ...

And I say that regardless of the finishes at the Trials - as long as those individuals are healthy and running well ... Of course there will be much politicing ... And I'm not sure any coaches out there have the cahones to just make a decision and stick with it .... Rolling Eyes
_________________
Conway
Speed Thrills
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Distance_Guru
World Class
World Class


Joined: 09 Mar 2002
Posts: 1280
Location: Nebraska

PostPosted: Mon Nov 04, 2002 2:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Conway wrote:
3rd leg - Has developed a good turn running the 200 and is a demon in the relay


Who do you mean? Bernard Williams perhaps.

This is where I would put Gatlin, with Timmy running second leg. The guy is the freaking World Record holder I just can't leave him off the relay!
_________________
Time is the fire in which we burn
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Conway
Olympic Medalist
Olympic Medalist


Joined: 25 Aug 2001
Posts: 3570
Location: Northen California

PostPosted: Mon Nov 04, 2002 3:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Distance_Guru wrote:
Conway wrote:
3rd leg - Has developed a good turn running the 200 and is a demon in the relay


Who do you mean? Bernard Williams perhaps.

This is where I would put Gatlin, with Timmy running second leg. The guy is the freaking World Record holder I just can't leave him off the relay!


WR holder ... Yes ... A great relay runner ... No ... Tim has run 2nd leg on US squads before ... And dropped the stick ...

Sprint relay running and sprinting are two different things ... Most people don't realize it, but the idea of running only the 1st 4 in the 100 final is only as recent as 1984 !!! Prior to that all manner of combinatios were used ...

Going backwards from 84 we did not participate in the games of '80 ... In '76 Millard Hampton (a 200 sprinter) was used ... In 72 another 200 sprinter, Larry Black was used ... In '68 there was much talk of using Tommie Smith (a 200 sprinter) on BOTH relays ... Of course once he got kicked out of the games things took care of themselves ... I could keep going backwards but I think you get the point ...

In a relay you have 4 very distinct legs ...

The first requires a consistently fast starter who also possesses good turn running ability ... often an outstanding 200 sprinter - a la Black in '72 - fits the bill nicely ...

The second leg needs someone with outstanding closing speed, great hands, and steady nerves as this person will be handling the baton TWICE ... They have ot get off their mark WITHOUT panicing in traffic AND be able to compensate on the other end if the outgoing runner does panic .. In my opinion this is the most important leg in the race ... Lost contact here is hard to make up ...

The third leg needs to be a GREAT turn runner as maximum speed on the turn is established here ... A great pair of hands and steady nerves are important here as they are on the second leg ...

Fourth leg ... Gal, guts, great closing ability and the will to win are what are required here ... This is the person who bails you out if anything goes wrong elsewhere ... A winning attitude - not best speed over 100 - is the primary need here ... I have seen many many many races won here by guys who did NOT have the best 100 PR !!!

So there you have my humble assessement of the race ...
_________________
Conway
Speed Thrills
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Distance_Guru
World Class
World Class


Joined: 09 Mar 2002
Posts: 1280
Location: Nebraska

PostPosted: Mon Nov 04, 2002 4:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nice points all but you still didn't say who your third leg would be... Wink
_________________
Time is the fire in which we burn
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Run-Down Forums Forum Index -> Sprint Central All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next
Page 2 of 4

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2002 phpBB Group