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American vs Other World coaching
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Conway
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2002 3:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I follow that logic ... However for the sake of discussion let's say that the period that americans spend fine tunng could be another period of growth instead and we are just missing it ??

Let's go to something that Justin said about mind set and the mental part of the sport .. If, mentally everyone has decided thta say 9.90 is great and 9.80 the "ceiling" then yes American coaches are in teh fine tuning stage ... BUT ... What if the mindset were in line with the Europeans ??? By that I mean the goal were .4 - .5sec away ... Putting the goal closed to say 9.55 - 9.60 !!! In that case then American coaches ARE failing ... Since the Europeans are getting cloesr to THEIR mark than we are to ours ...

In order to look at ti that way the question must be answered as to what the ultimates are in the sport ... If we go one level up (to the 200) look at far off the mark we are coaching to ... And look at all of the young "failures" that have gone through the system - such as Roy Martin (20.13 HS), Dwayne Evans (20.22 HS), Joe Deloach (20.24 HS), Clinton Davis (20.34 HS) ... Well you get my point ... Only Delaoch went sub 20 at 19.75 and based on his visual potential should have gone MUCH faster than that !!!

Back to you ..

Conway
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Dan
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2002 3:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

On the other hand, one could counter that the European Juniors are setting a softer standard (less competition to drive them to fast times early), so their target mark gives them a more impressive time gap to close with no extra difficulty.

The US has certainly had some big post-HS failures, but it's also had a lot of successes. I have no idea how the relative numbers compare to other countries ... but I would guess somewhat worse just due to the popularity of football and other pro sports that draw away great sprinters. I don't see that same factor applying to 18 year old sprint sensations in many other countries...

Dan
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Conway
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2002 10:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd have ot take some time to really look at the numbers, but off the top of my head there have been way more failures .... Just looking at all time lists and annual lists of high schoolers, few make it to the big time ... There have been a few years like 1976, 1985 and perhaps this past season where the leaders really stepped up and made a mark ... But in general most don't make it ... I mean look at the top level of US sprinters ... You have a few guys who have ruled for many years before giving way to a new crew (maybe half dozen at at a time) ... All the others were road kill ...

AS for the Euro Juniors I agree that their standards are "softer" in comparison to US standards ... But improve they do !!!

Conway
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indeurrr
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 06, 2003 1:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

US superior coaching -- the US sprint school of phillosphy:
-1) development of explosive power (short weight lifting sessions, but intense) -- no testosteron supression due to too long wieght sessions,
-2) power sprinting,
-3) overload/underload: since you cannot run faster or do shorter repeats in 100 m, you have to make more effort, or ... to make your body adjust to faster speed use aided traoning: less effort,
-4) you cannot run at max all the time (relaxing is a load of manure): you have to push and slighly glid each couple steps...
___Coomonsense note: "We will beat these little white boys..." When you look at Kenteris , Thanou, or even as of late Mackowiak (the last World Indoor Championship's 4 x 400 m Gold medalists's anchor).[/b]
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Indeurr
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 08, 2003 10:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

...you can see that neither Kenteris, Thanou, nor Mackowiak is a little white person.
(I know that I made quite a couple mistakes in my previous post. However, in this case "neither" uses "is" -- singular form).
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Dan
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 08, 2003 11:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not overly clear on what your point was or who the references were to... :question:

Dan
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Conway
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 09, 2003 8:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah ... Where did that come from and what are you talking about ???
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Micah Ward
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 09, 2003 11:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wasn't going to respond to something that didn't appear to make sense but what the heck. It gets me within one post of 800.
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Dan
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 09, 2003 11:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey, that's one of the best reasons to post that I've heard in a long time! Thumbs Up

Dan
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Indeurr
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 09, 2003 8:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

indeurrr wrote:
US superior coaching -- the US sprint school of phillosphy:
-1) development of explosive power (short weight lifting sessions, but intense) -- no testosteron supression due to too long wieght sessions,
-2) power sprinting,
-3) overload/underload: since you cannot run faster or do shorter repeats in 100 m, you have to make more effort, or ... to make your body adjust to faster speed use aided traoning: less effort,
-4) you cannot run at max all the time (relaxing is a load of manure): you have to push and slighly glid each couple steps...
___Coomonsense note: "We will beat these little white boys..." When you look at Kenteris , Thanou, or even as of late Mackowiak (the last World Indoor Championship's 4 x 400 m Gold medalists's anchor) they are certainly not white little people.[/b]

Simply, American dominion in the sprints since the early 1970's is due to the superior coaching phillosophy. The recent Greek success is due to the same or a very similsr sprint coaching phillosophy. Strength Counts!!! _But there is more to it.
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Indeurr
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 09, 2003 8:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

___More type II-a muscle (explosive power muscle) to carry the rest of the body at a faster speed, the better. Better trained type I a muscle, better efficiency.
___Does any body here even has a faint idea that over 45 minutes training (period ".", and most especially) weight training suppresses the testosterone levels? Does any body here not know the above and pretends to coach sprints? I would advise that person to at least read: Track and Field Coach Survival Guide by Edward L. Wallace, Jr. and to buy an instructional tape form USATF (you have to be a member).
___Another thing, you cannot just run a relaxed sprint, or you will run slowly. To beat the "Tetna's effect," you have to put maximum effort and "relaxed" effort or lesser effort in succession (push it a couple steps, and slightly glide a couple steps).


Last edited by Indeurr on Mon Feb 10, 2003 8:07 am; edited 1 time in total
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Dan
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 09, 2003 10:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok, so your point was that the US has the best coaches but that other countries -- a la Greece -- have improved in recent years by following suit?

If long duration workouts decrease testosterone, then why do bodybuilders train for 5-8 hours a day???

I would venture a guess that what you're referring to is studies that have suggested aerobic exercise limits the hormonal response to speed and strength work. However, that is much different from prolonged anerobic exercises such as high intensity work with lengthy enough rest to allow near full recovery.

Dan
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Indeurr
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 10, 2003 7:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

All my statements pertain exclusively and only to sprints.
"Ok, so your point was that the US has the best coaches but that other countries -- a la Greece -- have improved in recent years by following suit?"
-Yes for the most part, and No. It is more about the way they approach the entire trainning process, the coaching phillosophy. The American dominion was not as complete in the sprints before 1970 as afterwards.


"If long duration workouts decrease testosterone, then why do bodybuilders train for 5-8 hours a day??"
It is all well for the body builders because they do not care for the quality, but quantity. I have not seen an 8-hours a day-wiegts-lifting body builder win a 100 or 200 m race on an international level.
I can see the paradox as much as Dan. You cannot work out more than 45 minutes focusing on the explosive strength (type II-a muscle) with weights not to suppress the testosterone level; and you want more of the above mentioned type Ii-a quality muscle...This certainly may lead people like Ben Johnson to use illegal doping.
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Conway
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 10, 2003 9:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

?????

I'm not following you at all ... I get the feeling you are trying to make a point, but something is missing ...
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Dan
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 10, 2003 11:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
It is all well for the body builders because they do not care for the quality, but quantity. I have not seen an 8-hours a day-wiegts-lifting body builder win a 100 or 200 m race on an international level.

Uh... Of course not, two different sports/disciplines. My point was that people to whom strength/muscle mass/testosterone is highly important do not seem to have a problem with strength work of well over 45 minutes a day. That's why I said I think you have the meaning of that 45 minute cutoff confused with aerobic work, which is a completely different topic.

Dan
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