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What is the fastest a human being can run?
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Distance_Guru
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 08, 2002 4:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You are right MW where has Conway been? Another person I'd like to hear chime in on this subject is our sprint expert from across the pond, Justin.
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Conway
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2002 6:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well ... Let's see ... Fastest on record is Bailely who was clocked at 27 mph in his Atlanta run ... During Ben's Olympic run thre were 10 meter increment times taken on he and Carl ... And at top speed they were equal .. Ben put distance on him early on and then added .01 somewhere before the 60 meter mark ... But at top speed they were equal ... So far I have seen nothing on any of Mo's races regarding speed during the race ... Which is sad as I am sure that during his 9.80 or 9.82 races he was probably faster than anyone has been ... In the 9.80 race he stumbled out of the blocks which cost him some time ... And in the 9.82 race he pulled up near the end which cost him some time ... And visually (just me eyeballing it) I would almost have to say that the 9.82 was the fastest a man has run to date ... Montgomery talks a lot as Dan said .. But he does have high top end speed ... But if it were greater than Mo's he'd be beating him by now .. He loses some to Mo at the start based on reaction time - but as far as I am conscerned all that tells you is who's foot started to move first ... Doesn't give you anything on how quickly that first plant is made on the ground or rate of acceleration coming out ...
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Conway
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2002 6:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Some other races to consider ... Fastest 100 ever is a wind aided 9.69 by Oba Thompson ... But again no readings on speed during race ... It is very possible that he was at a top end speed greater than Mo or Bailey ...

At 19.32 it is likely that MJ (as much as I hate to say it) may have had the fastest top end speed ever at some point during that race, as he was somewhere around 8.8 duringi the second 100 of the race ... On that note there have been several 8.8x relay legs run in the 4x1 the best being an 8.85 by Lewis I believe ... That and MJ's 200 are very comparable as far as top speed goes ... I might be inclined ot lean an little more to Carl's anchor as it involved acceleration and MJ's race was more speed maintanence at that stage of the race ...

Finally there are some notoriouslly slow starters of the past who certainly had extreme top end speed ... Three that stand out vividly in my mind are Tommie Smith, Steve Williams and Clancy Edwards .... Three extreme closers ... If anyone has ever seen replays of the '68 Olympic 200 final, Smith's stretch move was pure acceleration ...

Having said all of that, the fastest anyone has run to date is around 27 mph ... I would think the fastest potentially would perhaps be somewhere around 28 mph which I am guessing would put the individual around 9.5x (8/9 maybe) ... As mo has shown up the body can only take so much external pressure on it .. At some point it will fail ... And when I say 9.5x I am talking perfect race, perfect conditions, which may have to include altitude ... Justin what do you think ???

Oh .. Glad to be back ... Had ot deal with a family emergency - mother in law had heart surgery ... Missed you guys ...

Conway
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Dan
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2002 7:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
At 19.32 it is likely that MJ ... may have had the fastest top end speed ever at some point during that race, as he was somewhere around 8.8 duringi the second 100 of the race ...

The number I remember is 9.2 seconds for the second half, with 10.1/9.2 splits. I generally figure half a second to factor in for a running start, although it's probably at least 0.75 for most people. That would put MJ's second half in the 9.9x ballpark, which is fast but not quite in the same range as the 27mph guys.

There was a lot of debate about that leading up to the 150m match race with Bailey. MJ's camp (and the American press) claimed that his second half was much faster than Bailey's 100m WR, and his average (9.66) was also faster. Bailey's camp (and all of Canada) correctly countered that those were bogus claims, as they ignored startup time and top-end speed.

I'll have to check the Charlie Francis books for specific references... He claims Ben achieved a higher top speed than Carl by '87.

Dan
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Conway
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2002 8:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You're right about MJ ... His first 100 was 10.13 which would make his second half 9.19 ... Puts him out of the ball park no matter how you look at it ..

Charlie was right in that Ben's top end speed was better than Carl's by 1987 ... Which is why Ben became the faster sprinter .. But as far as I know they hit the same top end speed in Seoul ...

Conway
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Justin
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2002 3:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chambers just touched 27mph in Munich but he 'only' ran 9.96. I have no trouble imagining someone touching 28 or 29mph momentarily because it's speed endurance that counts - Chambers touched 27mph at 70m but ran 26-27mph for the whole of the second half.

Mo Greene has run 9.82 injured into a slight wind. With good conditions and no injury that was a low 9.7s run, perhaps near 9.70. So I have no trouble imagining 9.70 in this decade.

I also have no reason to suppose the next generation won't be even faster. MLF and Darrel Brown are the first post-Carl Lewis world class sprinters and they don't think 10.00 is fast, they think 9.80 is fast. Chambers and MLF don't talk about running "sub 10" they talk about running "9 seconds". It's a subtle but crucial difference. This is the breakthrough required - Chambers has run 9.96 but sees it only as a stepping stone to world class, not world class itself.

Of course, if the whole world stopped fighting, eradicated poverty and made sprinting the number one job we'd have a WR of 9.20 in no time. Biomechanically I know of no reason why 10.00 or 9.70 are any sort of barrier. And of course we've not allowed for genetically manipulated sprinters or new drug breakthroughs.

The WR has gone from 9.95A to 9.79 sea level in 30 years. In the next 30 years I see no reason why the record won't come down by at least the same again, which takes us into the low 9.6s.

And then we could get our own Ian Thorpe, someone who with a rare combination of perfect genetics and perfect mental strength who just re-defines the entire event. I think the 100m is still waiting for its 19.32.

Justin
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Dan
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2002 7:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Chambers and MLF don't talk about running "sub 10" they talk about running "9 seconds". It's a subtle but crucial difference.

Definitely. Mental barriers seem to be larger than physical ones on average, as evidenced by the distance runners in '95.

Dan
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Conway
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2002 10:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think breaking mental barriers is important ... But I also think that if one is not talking about something realistic they are just talking ... I wa always taught (and have taught others) to lookin terms of reachable increments .. Once reaching 10.00 to look at say 9.80 as the next goal ... Then say 9.60 .. Reachable but a stretch ... Depending on the abilities of the athlete ...

While i can appreciate all of the young people having a different "view" on times, think they also need to appreciate the difficulty in achieving fast times ... Otherwise they may stall out ... I think that is what happened to the 200 meters .... There were several who thought that Mennea's mark was soft and easy and never goto there becasue of that attitude ... Surely Carl Lewis should have gotten it before MJ ... So should Marsh ... MJ should have gotten it long before he did ...

I see the same thing happening in the 100 ... I believe only MO (and dare I say) Montgomery truly appreciate how fast sub 9.80 is ... Partly because they have been there or close to it ... And so they know what it took to get there ... When you haven't been there it is merely a mental concept ... And I say that from my own experience of trying to achieve PRs ..

Conway
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Justin
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2002 11:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Agreed, and this is the challenge facing Chambers. He ran a perfect race in the EC...great start, great pickup, high top-end speed and held it all the way to the line. 9.96.

At his best Mo Greene would have been faster away, had a quicker pickup, a higher top-end speed and better endurance. 9.86.

Every single part of the two races is different. In every single part Chambers needs to improve.

And even then Greene would still beat him by nearly a metre if he matched his best.

But I'll tell you something...Chambers knows this. While the press rave about sub 10, Chambers talks about running 9 seconds...different game entirely. That's why 100m standards continue to improve. 10.00 was even a barrier for Carl Lewis...except for one race that was always enough to win. Why shoot for 9.85 when 9.95 wins?

Here's a little fact...over half of all Mo Greene's sub 10.20 times (38 out of 69) are sub 10. 10.00 is where he starts, not where he aims.

I've made a similar post in the Radcliffe forum pointing out the poverty of ambition among female 10k runners who failed to take a clue from Kristiansen running 30:13 in 1986 and Wang running 29:31 in 1993. Until Radcliffe this year, 31 or 32 mins was a good 10k time. That's absurd. The record should be nearer 29 mins than 30 now. It's all in the head.

Justin
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Conway
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2002 12:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Agreed ... The mind IS a terrible thing to waste ... When I was running I hardly ever failed to meet a goal I had set ... I wish I had been born 20 years later - I wouldn't have had to go to work so early and could have trained past the age of 20 ...

I have said in numerous posts regarding distance running that the mindset is so much different than in sprinting ... As soon as something leaves the distance runners confort level it becomes something that cannot be achieved ...

The one thing I look at in this sport is that whether or not an athlete was on drugs the mark was acomplished ... That means that it is therefore possible for a man (or woman) to achieve ... Different level of trianing may need to be achieved ... But it can be done as it has already proven to have been done ...

And I agree totally about Mo ... And that is why I now put him ahead of Bob Hayes ... Bob ran to win ... And win he did ... Against any and all ... But Mo not only runs to win, but has set a standard for himself ... I think he gets out of bed looking at 10.00 ... And as he wakes up and gets his bearings that mark gets lower ... On a bad day, as we have seen earlier this year, he is still going to run 10.0x ... It only gets better from there ... His championships history is simply astounding with a 9.8375 avg in championship races !!! It's mental ... The only other person who has dared to openly discuss running that fast regularly is Montgomery, but he is finding it to be quite the difficult task ...

But if you want ot be in the hunt, that is how you must think ... To do less means to settle for runningin the back of the pack ...

Conway
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Micah Ward
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 16, 2002 9:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Conway, Glad to see you back and best wishes for your mother in law.
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Conway
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 16, 2002 9:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Micah ... How have you been ??

Conway
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Micah Ward
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 16, 2002 7:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Been doing great!!! You saw the vacation report. Now I'm off to school (again) for a week on legal liability.
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X King
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 01, 2002 10:48 am    Post subject: Fastest Speed that can be reached by a human Reply with quote

:supergrin: According to my sources and information I have come up with 5 Deep lists of Top Speeds:
1.M.Greene(USA)12.60mps/28.22mph.Reached during the 45m-65m stage of the 2001 Edmonton WCh Men's 100m Final.
2.C.Lewis(USA)12.50mps/28.00mph.Reached during the last 2m of the 1984 Los Angeles Oylmpic Games Men's 100m Final.
3.B.Hayes(USA)12.47mps/27.93mph.Reached during the 60-75yards(15yards)stage of 100yd race in 1963.15yds in 1.1s.Worth roughly 12.53mps/28.07mph on synthetic track.
4.B.Johnson(CAN)(I'm gonna get shot for typing this!!!!)12.35mps/27.66mph.According to Charlie Francis's video tapes of the 1985 Zurich 100m race he states that Ben achieved a 10m split of 0.81s during the 70m-80m stage of that race.
5.D.Bailey(CAN)12.20mps/27.32mph.Reached during the 50m-60m stage of the 1996 Atlanta Olympic Games Men's 100m Final.
I hope that this information could provide some adequate use to your interest and question. Cool
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Dan
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 01, 2002 3:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interesting... What are the sources of information for the 4 other than Ben? Hopefully not TV replays?

Dan
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