Run-Down Forums

[Dan]

Some interesting results from Switzerland today:

http://espn.go.com/oly/news/2002/0702/1401541.html

I've noticed Francis Obiwelu listed as being from Portugal the past few meets. I think I remember hearing something about him changing nationality in the past year... Did that just go through?

If Montgomery isn't careful, he's going to take over Ato Boldon's throne (or is that his veil?) of perennial bridesmaid...

I see Borzakovskiy ran the 800 after all. Is that his first race of the year? I haven't seen him turning up in any 400m results.

France put two 1500m guys well ahead of our #1... And before anyone says it, they're about as French as our top distance runners are American.

Good 110 hurdles race, but Garcia was clearly the class of that field.

Must not have been an important meet, Hartwig won the pole vault...

I think Chrystie Gaines may be just about spent for the season. Being a typically strong indoor runner, she seemed to start this season a bit too strong... For that matter, any guesses how frequently we'll see JJ Johnson and Shawn Crawford compete the rest of the way?

I still say Teter looks to be stronger in the 800 than the 1500, but that's just me. Heck of a run there for her.

And last but certainly not least, another blazing effort for Gail Devers in the hurdles!

Dan

[Justin]

Also in Lausanne, a Chinese athlete (sorry, name escapes me) ran 13.12 for 110mH, a World Junior Record. That breaks the 13.23 run by Renaldo Nehemiah in 1978.

Obikwelu has lived in Portugal for some time, since childhood I believe, and his nationality has come through just in time for the Europeans this year.

Good women's HJ as well...2.04m is rare...and a fast 800m fom Mutola (1:56).

Justin

[Distance_Guru]

I think 1:57 is a PR for Tetter, I didn't get to see this race so I can't compair it to the race she ran in Oslo for 1500, but I can say that she looked like she was a very good 1500 runner. Of coarse it's not like she has to be good at only the 800 or the 1500 she could be good at both.

And Gail Devers is amazing. She looks as fast now as at anytime in the last several years.

And wasn't Francis Obiwelu originally from Nigeria?
_________________
Time is the fire in which we burn

[Dan]

[Distance_Guru]

[Dan]

That's why I said mid-distance.

Your list would also have to include Said Aouita, possibly the best of them all.

This is getting off topic, but I think it's common for people to look at distances of 5k and longer as being fairly similar in terms of requirements, i.e. the 5k and 10k are roughly the same event training-wise, 10k and 15k, half marathon and marathon, etc., and assuming the same holds true for shorter distances. I just don't see that being the case in the mid-distance range, which is basically the 800 and 1500. Double the distance in that region is a completely diferent event, and I think a lot of athletes would be wise to view it as such instead of bouncing back and forth. This is, after all, the era of professionalism and event specialization...

Dan

[Distance_Guru]

Ooops I missed the mid distance part, sorry.

And specialization in mid distance is more prevailent than in the longer distaces. Although there have been athletes that have been successful in both the 800 and 1500/Mile ranking in the top ten all time in both the 800 and either the 1500 or the Mile. Although all of these athletes ran these time no more recently than 1990.

Seb Coe (2nd 800 1:41.83, 8th Mile 3:47.33)
Tatyana Kazankina (5th 1500 3:52.47, 5th 800 1:54.94)
Doina Melinte (6th 800 1:55.05, 5th Mile 4:17.14)
_________________
Time is the fire in which we burn

[Dan]

Yeah, it's been a while since such athletes have truly excelled, and those still fitting the bill (Masterkova, Mutola, Holmes, maybe Jacobs, Hamilton, and Teter) are almost exclusively female and fall outside the group of Africans dominating most of the lists.

Dan

[Distance_Guru]

Of coarse Africans don't dominate the list on the womens side. Of the All-Time top ten list in the 800 Mutola is the only African, and there are no Africans at all on either the 1500 or Mile lists!!!!

Does that shock anyone else?

These lists are dominated by Chinese (6 of the top 10 in 1500) and Romainian (4 of the top 10 in the Mile) runners.
_________________
Time is the fire in which we burn

[Dan]

It's interesting, but I can't say it really surprises me. For whatever reason, the African distance women don't seem to carry the same speed component as their male counterparts. People have been saying for the past 10-15 years that we'll be seeing a huge surge of African women on the running scene any day now, but it hasn't really materialized. A few here and there, but not really disproportionate to any other country.

That could be an interesting topic of discussion...

Dan

[Justin]

I don't think we have any reason to doubt the age of the Chinese guy with the 13.12 WJR. The Chinese have not participated in the sort of age fraud which has troubled junior athletics and I have no knowledge of the divers you refer to.

The more interesting (and less cynical) observation to make about that performance is how amazing it is to see a WJR last 24 years and what that tells us about (a) how great Nehemiah was and (b) what great promise the new guy has. The 110mH has stagnated - since Nehemiah ran 12.93 in 1981, the WR has only come down by 0.02 in 21 years. Any new talent should be welcomed.

More broadly, China represents 1/4 of the entire human population yet barely registers on the world stage. We should not be surprised if they produce stunning athletes - the surprise is that they don't do so more often. Ma Jungren's female athletes may well have been doped but they still ran times way faster than plenty of other, equally doped, women have ever managed. As performance levels stagnate in the rich, idle West we will have to look to currently under-performing nations for progress and it is Asia and Africa which have the most promise, limited by a mixture of poverty and politics.

Justin

[Justin]

The societies from which the majority of African runners come are typically quite 'traditional' in terms of male/female roles and female participation in sports is not as acceptable as for men. This is a huge generalisation of course, but does account in large part for the relative lack of female African runners.

Another major factor is that most of North Africa and parts of sub-Saharan Africa are largely Muslim, with attendant difficulties for women in sports - remember the trouble Hassiba Boulmerka (sp?) from Algeria had a few years ago? Again, a generalisation, but a factor.

Even in the West there are substantial societal and cultural barriers to female participation in sport. It's because of this that there is less depth to almost all female events compared to men. This is also true of many sports - look at Tennis, for example.

Justin

[Conway]

Yesterday's meet was outstanding .. I got to listen to it on British radio .. Justin I envy you !!!

The young Chinese hurdler is Liu Xiang .. And he won by .24sec ... VERY impressive ... And I agree with Justin in that this mark shows just how truly great Nehemiah was .. People talk about MJ's 19.32, but what Nehemiah was doing in the late 70's was simply awesome !!! He took the record from 13.23 down to 12.93 .. Astaggering improvement when you think about it ... And had he NOT opted for football probably would have gone near 12.80 !!!! He was THAT good ... If you never saw him he was fast, smooth, and technically near perfect ... And in arelated elemente to Webb, was lead by his HS coach all the way (even while at Maryland)!!!

Obikwelu is Nigerian by birth and has competed for them .. He and a few other Nigerian athletes had troubles with their federation a couple of seasons ago and so he applied for Portuguese citizenship as he had lived there for quite some itme already .. He ran 19.84 in his 200 semi in hte 1999 Worlds and personally I've been waiting for him to break through ever since .. Long beautiful stride, I think he could be a great 400 sprinter !!! WE need someone under 44.00 !!!

Teter sounded great in the 800 .. made her move and went for the win as she has in every race she has run ... Mutola was just stronger than she or anyone else ..

Back to the Chinese .. WE should expect great things from them given their population AND their technological expertise .. They have had a few sprinters near 10.00 and I suspect they may be the first non-blacks to break the barrier .. As a mattar of fact they had a sprinter run 10.2 yesterday in the "B" race (faster than Montgomery in second in the "A" race) .. I think for too long we have had a blind eye to China - as if they were some thrid world country ... And while in some ways they have been, in other ways they have not .. China wants to be a global player ... And remember they will be hosting an Olympics very soon ... They will be ready both with facilities AND athletes ... Everyone would like ot be well represented when they are at home ... And China has additional political incentive !!! I foresee them making more ground globally than any of the African nations ..

Conway

[Dan]

I agree with pretty much everything the two of you said. I'm not taking away anything from the time -- 13.12 is nearly a world leader -- but the Junior Record status is a joke in most events. Without having seen Xiang, I wouldn't be surprised if this is yet another birth certificate inaccuracy issue...

I argued pretty much the same thing about Webb's 3:53 mile. At least in his case, we know with pretty good certainty what his age was. But it still tells us nothing about where he'll be in 5-10 years relative to others who have run fast early, so why not just enjoy it as a great time and leave all the other nonsense aside. Even if we do know ages with some certainty (which is impossible for a high percentage of the events' junior record setters), the age eligibility cutoffs become so trivial as to be pointless.

Dan

[Conway]

Well I agree with how you feel about the WJRs as far as how many countries keep track of their athletes ages ... But I still feel that they are necessary ...

Here in the US we have a ver defined High School System .. And as such our HS records are very contiguous ... and amount to nearly the same thing as WJRs (or in this case AJRs) ... However, the rest of the world does not follow our High School set up and/or doesn't have the financial where with all to ensure that all schools are able to provide equitable levels of athletic opporutnity ... In that case having a world wide set of marks for young people to shoot for (as well as to have some means of global comparison) seems to be a necessary evil to me ...