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sprint vs. distance coaching philosophies
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Distance_Guru
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 24, 2002 1:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

By those standards then Aurthor Lydiard, and Percy Cerruty (sp) both quailify, they are old school but they both coached world record holder and Olympic medalists. (Although I haven't found any of Cerruty's writtings here in the states I may try some Austrailian based book sites.) And didn't Bowerman also coach Alberto Salazar or was that Dillenger?

In todays distance running world then I guess we'll have to wait for Brother Colm O'Connel and Mike Kosgei to come out with books. Although since most of the Kenyans are self coached I'm not sure we can count them.

So using those standards we have, Lydiard, Cerruty, maybe Bowerman and Coe. With Coe being the only of the three that I'm sure is stilll alive.
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Dan
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 24, 2002 1:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bowerman had stepped down as UO coach before Salazar got there, but I don't know who actually coached him (I know someone who was on the team at the time, though). My impression is that Salazar and crew were more closely connected with Athletics West than UO, but I'm not sure if that included the time he was in school.

It would be nice to hear from some of the European coaches, as they've had pretty good success with a talent pool that should be no different from ours. They've also got a heavy Kenyan/Ethiopian influence in many areas, so some good stuff is sure to have rubbed off.

Dan
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Conway
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 24, 2002 2:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Europeans intrigue me as they generally make something out of nothing ... They start from scratch and build their athletes ... No college feeding program (nor ihgh scohol for thta matter) ... Some club teams and that's it ... Yet they develop outstanding athletes ... And most of it is technically based .... Now THERE would be some reading ....
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Dan
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 24, 2002 3:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

One thing the European club system offers that appears to be the same with Canada's system in the early 80's (not sure if it still is so today) is that the truly elite runners remain affiliated with the club they came up in. Not only does that provide consistency to the athlete, but it provides great role models for the young kids who will one day fill the shoes of that star.

I'm sure good coaching also plays a big part, but I think that continuity within the program may be one of the biggest benefits to keeping the machine in motion.

You can see the same thing in the states on a smaller scale. Many of the most successful high school coaches across all sports are the ones who can tap into the junior high and summer camp pipeline and incorporate the talent into their system at an earlier age.

Dan
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Paul
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 24, 2002 6:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maybe this topic is the best place for me to ask DG and anyone else who has read "Running With the Buffaloes". I got the impression that Wettmore's runners were way overtrained as they approached Nationals. Almost everyone was nursing some kind of injury, even Goucher had to take a couple of days off. All the problems seemed to be of the overuse kind. Some were not able to complete the VO2 Max type training he had scheduled toward the end just because they were too beat up. Wettmore himself questioned the density of training he had outlined back in August. Did he make any changes in his training in the last 3 years that you are aware of?? Such as incorporating some easy days into the schedule, especially before the fast interval days.

Paul
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Hammer
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 25, 2002 7:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So how does one become a successfull Distance Coach????? If word of mouth was my only means of learning about distance running, who should I talk to???

If a person wants to be successful in coaching any aspect of track and field one needs the best information. I believe that one needs to talk to people and read to become the best coach possible.

I hear a lot of (distance coaches) who say, "you can't learn about running by reading." I would say, "you can't learn about anything by only reading."

If one has never competed in the hurdle events can that person become a successfull coach?? I say yes. That person needs to: Talk to people, read, and watch videos.
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Dan
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 25, 2002 8:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Welcome back, Hammer.

While I cannot disagree with any of your statements, none of them get at the heart of the question, which is why the difference in success between the sprints and distances in this country and whether it's related to the manner in which coaching knowledge is propagated.

Everything you said should apply equally well to the sprints...

Dan
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Hammer
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 25, 2002 8:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't believe that coaching plays that big a role in the differences.

Good athletes + good coaches = success
Good athletes + bad coahes = success
Bad athletes + good coahces = lack of success
Bad athletes + bad coaches = lack of success
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Dan
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 25, 2002 8:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Good athletes + bad coahes = success
Bad athletes + good coahces = lack of success

Hmm, me thinks you need to offer a bit of support for something as questionable as that... A good athlete will always succeed in spite of bad coaching??? A good coach cannot succeed with average talent? Those are some gigantic leaps of faith...

Dan
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Distance_Guru
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 25, 2002 8:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hammer, so I see you survived. Good to hear from you again.

Paul, I would bet my bottom dollar that Wettmore has changed his training since 1998, but not the system. Every good coach that I've ever been around changed the order density and other factors in a training schedule from year to year. A friend of mine use to say over a 10 year time span a good coach coaches 10 season a poor coach coaches the same season 10 times. And as for the CU team being beaten up, that's just college distance running at that level. That team was a little more beaten up than some but I wouldn't say that they were extremely beaten up. And they also ran pretty well as a team at the national meet, who knows how well they would have done had tragedy not taken their second best runner. As cold as this sounds, training is about risk reward ratio. The more you train the greater the potential reward (good performances) and the greater the risk of physical injury. In other words if you are going to try to run at a high level your risk for injury is going to be high.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 25, 2002 8:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dan wrote:
Welcome back, Hammer.

While I cannot disagree with any of your statements, none of them get at the heart of the question, which is why the difference in success between the sprints and distances in this country and whether it's related to the manner in which coaching knowledge is propagated.

Dan


I would love to draw a correlation here but I can't. Successful sprint coaches being stingy with their knowlege. Successful distance coaches being fairly open with their knowlege. I don't see how it could be related that not sharing knowlege could lead to success while sharing it lead to a lack of success. It seems to be the opposite of what one would expect.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 25, 2002 8:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I don't see how it could be related that not sharing knowlege could lead to success while sharing it lead to a lack of success. It seems to be the opposite of what one would expect.

True, that analysis seems counter-intuitive. However, I'm not thinking so much of the sharing/not sharing aspect as the internal/external knowledge and confidence that seems to go along with the respective systems.

As far as CU, I haven't gotten the impression that their approach has changed dramatically. All the more reason I was surprised to read recently that Wetmore actually cut back the mileage that Ritzenheim was accustomed to running.

Dan
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 25, 2002 8:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wasn't terribly surprised since what Ritz is doing now is about what Goucher was doing as a junior and senior. The difference is that Ritz was used to doing 100 +/- miles a week on two a days where as now he's doing 90 +/- on one run a day. Decreasing the mileage by 10% while reducing the training sessions by about 50%, I would actually consider that an increase.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 25, 2002 9:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dan,
To me whoever (top 10% of college distance programs) got Ritz in college was going to be successful with him. I prefere Wetmore's style but +-100 miles in Lanana's system would hav preferred similar results, as long as Ritz has bought into the program.

In the same manner Wetmore or Lanana or Cerutty for that matter would never make me into a world class athlete.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 25, 2002 9:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
To me whoever (top 10% of college distance programs) got Ritz in college was going to be successful with him.

Would you not have said the same of Webb up until a few weeks ago...?

Quote:
Wetmore or Lanana or Cerutty for that matter would never make me into a world class athlete.

That may be, but how do you explain the Europeans producing a small number of very competitive distance individuals with a talent/genetic pool that probably differs very little from our own and is much smaller? Heck, New Zealand isn't exactly the biggest country on the map...

Dan
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