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What is more important for a 400m athlete ,Speed or Stamina?
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 15, 2009 6:01 pm    Post subject: What is more important for a 400m athlete ,Speed or Stamina? Reply with quote

The quetion is what is more important for a 400 meter runner, Speed or Stamina? I know both play a big role in a 400 meter race , but out of the two what is more important , and what are some things one can do to help them improve their abilitys ( wether it be Speed or Stamina )
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2009 12:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'll answer that question with a question... What type of combo athlete do you see more frequently, 200/400 or 400/800?

I'd wager the ratio is at least 10:1 in favor of the 200/400 group, probably more. The 400 isn't a power sprint, but it's still all about speed. Being able to maintain your speed does very little good in the 400 if you have insufficient speed in the first place. It's not until the 800m that endurance catches up with speed in importance.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2009 7:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What I'm saying is that you need to go over the race distance to develop that stamina. If stamina didn't play a role, then Bolt should be able go run the 400 at sub 10 second splits. Speed is important too, but you never reach your top speed in the 400 because the distance is too long. You do have the speed to run a 51 sec. 400 because you can run a 25 sec. 200. It's a matter of maintaining it and increasing your 200m speed faster than 25 seconds so that that sub 200m speed will be higher than your last. However, it's not all about increasing your top speed. Michael Johnson and Jeremy Wariner can't even run close to what Bolt can in the 100, but they have more stamina and speed endurance. See, if you kept running after a 25 sec. 200, you would lose your stability and start to slow down. Take your 25 sec. 200 vs. your 200 split in that 55 sec. 400. The one you ran at 25, felt harder, it took more energy to run that fast. Now after you passed your first 200m in that 400, you were feeling more relaxed because you had more energy left. In the shorter distances, you almost never feel any exhaustion but in that 400 you start to feel the burn at the end. You should have a decent top speed, but that's more for the 100m sprinters. Every distance from the 100m on up requires some endurance. You may not feel at as much in the very short distances. Oh and the longer the distance, the more stamina varying at different types. Marathoners need more aerobic endurance which is still a form of stamina but 400m runners need more lactic tolerance. I'm saying that if you do workouts of 500s, 600s, and even very rarely 800s, it will help boost your lactic tolerance. It's also a matter of frequency because the more 800s you do,the closer you lean towards becoming an 800m runner.

I'll use another example. Alan Webb who is a 3:46 miler, ran the 400 under 48 seconds in high school. Now think about it, how often do you think a middle distance runner like him did workouts of short dashes and plyometrics (jumps)? I'm a miler too and the thing is that we do intervals of 200s, a lot of 400s, 600s, and 800s. That's only during track for us, I spend most of my time running almost 100 miles a week with one hill day. Bekele, who holds the world record in the 10K ran in 26:17.53, ran the last lap under 55 seconds and for the other 10K he ran at Athens, he ran the last lap (24th) in 51 seconds. I won't even give my prediction for what he would run in a 400m race. You need the lactic tolerance, google "400m training" and you'll see a whole schedule on it also explaining the workouts. Besides 400-800m intervals, you also do continuous runs of 30 min. every now and then.

You should add a day of 300s and occasionally switch that out with 800s every other week. The 400s and 600s are good. Always keep the reps low for intervals from 400s-800s. I think what Dan is referring to is that if you run 6x800m (which will automatically be at mile race pace the fastest), then that will affect you as far as being a 400m runner. Instead, do 2x800 with a mini-workout of 40-50-60m dashes in between. You just need another day of intervals. Otherthan that, everything else is fine. The biking is a very good idea because it's always good to get in an aerobic workout as a 400m runner.
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Dan
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2009 10:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Angelo Z wrote:
You do have the speed to run a 51 sec. 400 because you can run a 25 sec. 200.

I stopped reading at this point... You're talking different energy systems, not speed vs. stamina.

Dan
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2009 5:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dan said that you can't maintain the speed if you have insufficient speed. Now let's look from where speed comes. When you have more energy at your expense, you can run faster. When you have a higher top speed, you can run faster. I'll counter that with an example. The 4x100m relay is much faster than a 400m race. Why? Because like Dan said, the runner running the 400m has insufficient speed to maintain the speed that the 4x100m relay runners are running. Why is that? The runner running the 400m will slow down. Why does he slow down? Lactic acid is kicking in and the creating phosphate disappears after the first few 100s also otherwise known as simply stamina. When you run a 100m race, you put in 100% effort in the 100. When you run the 400, you put in 100% effort in the 400 which is 25% effort for each 100.


I touched on that right after the point at where you stopped reading. The problem with his question is that it's too broad. I mean it would take pages to answer it. First off, he needs to understand about what type of stamina he's referring too. I would re-ask the question as, what's more important: top end speed or stamina? I mean stamina isn't about running longer, but also about running faster. My answer is that stamina is more important for the 400. Max speed is something you can only hold for a matter of seconds, but a 400 is 40 seconds+. Stamina will improve speed. Speed is how much distance is covered within a time frame. If you have more stamina and don't fatigue as much, you can put in more force and this cover the same distance in a shorter period of time. What I want him to avoid is to train like a 100m sprinter.

I'll use my 800m interval example. 800m is twice the race distance. An 800 truly is more stamina-based than speed. I'm also trying to explain the differences in stamina because it's a huge word. 2x800 is stamina just like 6x800.

It's a matter of what you work on the most, not which one is more important even though this sentence means the same thing the other way around. Speed vs. stamina is important for every distance from 400m and on. You just need to do the right amount of each for the distance you run. You need lactic tolerance and speed. Think of it like this: if you can't run the 100 in at least 12 seconds, then you can't run the 400 in 48 either. Let's say one can run the 100 under 10 seconds and another can run the 100 in 12. The first one has a cushion so he can run a 50 second 400 with a lot more ease than the other running 12 for 100m.

This will answer your question the best. Why is the WR 4x100m relay so much faster than the WR 400m? There's different speed and stamina workouts for each distance. Both are important but you'll need more stamina the longer you run. I run middle and long distance. Your stamina workouts are my speed workouts. You also need the right type of speed and stamina workouts just like I do. 40-50-60m dashes does zilch for improving my speed in the mile run and 6x800m does zilch for improving your stamina in the 400.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2009 10:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Angelo Z wrote:
When you run a 100m race, you put in 100% effort in the 100. When you run the 400, you put in 100% effort in the 400 which is 25% effort for each 100.

Umm, no, it doesn't work quite that way... Probably more like 90% effort each 100, give or take. 25% effort would be a light stroll.

Quote:
Stamina will improve speed.

I don't see where you're going with that concept or how you arrived at it... The only thing that improves speed is speed development.

Quote:
What I want him to avoid is to train like a 100m sprinter.

When was that ever in question? Was the 100m even mentioned as a training option?

Quote:
40-50-60m dashes does zilch for improving my speed in the mile run...

Disagree... If done properly, sprints of that sort will improve your running economy (efficiency) and make it easier to maintain pace at a longer distance such as the mile.

Dan
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2009 1:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Stamina improves speed. Bekele has amazing speed and most of his training is distance stuff at altitude. If I run 400m and I get tired after 300m, then I slow down. Now if I run 400m and feel like I can run 100m more, then that means I have more energy conserved which I will naturally use at my advntage to put in more speed. When you run at a speed that's passed a certain point and you slow down, then that's different. That's mostly due to physics, but if you're running the mile and you slow down, then you can still pick it up.

That last one doesn't make sense. Running at 40-60m speed is very unstable. In fact, the closer you run to your max speed, the more unstable you become and the same goes for running at 12:00 mile pace. It's like trying to learn how to park a car at 30 mph. Dashes are unhear of in African distance running and I'm saying that because Africans kick butt in distance. I've read Daniels' Running Formula and it's completely different on running economy. What improved my economy was long, slow running, I'm talking base building aside from all the energy improvements. You need to do a long, slow, perpetual motion to improve economy. When I run 40m, that is like me accelerating, it is completely different than the mile which makes it useless for improving running economy for milers. Aerobic endurance is the bread and butter for milers, it was the same for Hicham. Running 6-12 miles everyday at 4:40 mile pace is what also improves stamina a lot more than running economy. When I tried running at 7:00 pace, my form was falling apart, it just doesn't feel mechanically possible anymore and it actually feels harder than running at 6:00 pace. I've also looked into African running which you've probably done so many times and I didn't see a single hint that they do dashes. Just look at the results overall. I mean, Americans think that speed is the same for sprinters and endurance athletes, afterall it's still distance over time right?

I went one dayafyer school to try out doing the drills with the track team. The coach said high knees and after I did it I was like, "My knees don't even feel close to going up this high when I run." That's just what people see from the sprinters. If I was running like that in the mile, I would be moving more vertically than horizontally. It's just a natural thing, you can run at 8:00 pace on the balls of your feet either even though the so-called science says that you spend less time on the ground by running on the balls of your feet. I'm saying all of this which seems a bit off topic because you raised a new debate with running economy and that also reminds me about the mistakes that Americans implement in their distance training

The book says this; if one runner uses 55 ml.kg. of oxygen at 6:00 pace vs. one with 50, then the second runner has a better running economy. I would say that all kinds of speeds improve a part of running eceonomy. Like in the first example, VO2 speed improves economy, easy pace or running relaxed improves economy, and faster paces like 200s, and hill sprints aid in running economy too. What I still don't see is how can short dashes help besides accelerating?
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2009 4:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh and you're right, the 100 was never mentioned but I assumed that if he takes out those intervals because you said they're mainly for conditioning, then the only running he'll pretty much do is short dashing and nothing longer than 400m.

My posts would be 3x as long if I also explained all of my assumptions. I think so much that I start saying all kinds of things that people have no idea where most of it came from. It took me 2 hours to try to come up with an answer to his question that my iPhone's battery ran out and I had to recharge it again and go back through all of the brainstorming I just did all over again so I can retype everything exactly the way it was as best as I can. I know what you're thinking or at least I'll guess, "He must have issues, mental ones."
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2009 11:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Stamina improves speed. Bekele has amazing speed and most of his training is distance stuff at altitude.

How exactly does the latter prove the former? I see a total disconnect there. I could just as easily say stamina has no effect on speed because Bekele has amazing natural foot speed for a distance runner. How's that for a proof? Twisted Evil

Quote:
My posts would be 3x as long if I also explained all of my assumptions. I think so much that I start saying all kinds of things that people have no idea where most of it came from.

It does make them rather difficult to read... Keeping them focused on one idea at a time would help a lot.

Dan
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 22, 2009 7:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Speed is also a byproduct of stamina. Speed can be improved through speed development too such as running 150s, 100s, and so on. The next problem is maintaining it. So if he's doing some 400s and 600s, then that will teach his body to cope with the lactic acid more and be more consistent. His amount of reps should be kept much lower than that of a miler. I may run 12x400, but a 400m sprinter also needs speed so 4x400m very fast with almost triple the recovery time I take in 12x400 after every rep would be perfect. I've looked at various types of 400m training and I found that intervals from 400-800 are very common too. The 150s are good, he needs those too.

What I don't quite understand is what type of training he does in track as opposed to summer. Milers usually have a mileage build-up period but sprinters pretty much run fast all the time.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 14, 2009 11:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Dan said that you can't maintain the speed if you have insufficient speed. (...)

What? (I pretending to be Lil Jon, the rapper).
This is too simple--it is all common sense!
The speed that a person runs the 400 m with is about 90 to 95% of their maximum speed as developed over 100 meters.
If you are slow over 100 m, your 90 to 95% also will be slower.
This is that simple: simple!
Yeah -- I do agree, over 400 m, you must possess speed endurance, but only a very little general endurance.
400 m is 90% speed and speed endurance, and only 10% general endurance (such as athletes running any distance between a mile and a marathon must develope).
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 18, 2009 7:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Michael Johnson's 100 wasn't anywhere as fast as Bolt's and he still holds the 400m world record.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 18, 2009 5:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You could say the same about any three consecutive events... Different abilities, different focus.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 20, 2009 12:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I know, but I was just trying to prove that the statement of faster 100=faster 400 is not necessarily true. But yeah, different focus>theory.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 20, 2009 1:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Angelo Z wrote:
I was just trying to prove that the statement of faster 100=faster 400 is not necessarily true.

When was that statement made? Confused

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