Run-Down Forums Forum Index Run-Down Forums

 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 
Run-Down Forums Forum Index
Training Talk
Running & Weigh Lifting
Post new topic   Reply to topic

Goto page 1, 2  Next
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Run-Down Forums Forum Index -> Training Talk
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
SteveM
Lurker


Joined: 22 Dec 2008
Posts: 2
Location: Tavares,FL

PostPosted: Mon Dec 22, 2008 7:19 am    Post subject: Running & Weigh Lifting Reply with quote

I have been weight training and doing some running for many years. In the last 5 months or so I have been trying to increase the running. I am currently running 3 miles 3 days a week. I weight train for 3 days a week. I try and rotate the running days with weight days, except Saturday where i like to do both. Should weight traing and running on the same day be avoided? And should I skip a day in between running?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Angelo Z
World Class
World Class


Joined: 11 Aug 2007
Posts: 1159
Location: LA, California

PostPosted: Mon Dec 22, 2008 9:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well they say that you should run *after* you weight train. As for my opinions, that doesn't really matter. Just make a pattern between running and weight lifting that suits you physically and meets your rest.
_________________
My favorite all time race: Hicham El Guerrouj - Prefontaine Classic Mile 2002 http://youtube.com/watch?v=4YykUTHzOL8
•London 2012 XXX Olympiad•
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website AIM Address Yahoo Messenger MSN Messenger
Dan
Chief Pontificator
Chief Pontificator


Joined: 22 Mar 1999
Posts: 9334
Location: Salem, OR

PostPosted: Mon Dec 22, 2008 1:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As always, my advice is the exact opposite of Angelo's. Smile I don't know who "they" are, but I advise against running after lifting. That's a good way to pull a muscle, and best case scenario, you practice being slow and sluggish. Switch it around -- run then weights -- and you get the running quality in and still get effort-based lifting that is plenty effective.

If you need to lift before running because of your schedule, at least try to do so on your light training days.

Dan
_________________
I get injured so you don't have to.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
ssteve235
Varsity
Varsity


Joined: 06 Nov 2008
Posts: 253
Location: Goshen, NY

PostPosted: Mon Dec 22, 2008 4:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i agree w/ dan. i always do my wieght lifting after my runs. it just seems to make more sense to do it that way
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Indeurr
Olympic Medalist
Olympic Medalist


Joined: 08 Aug 2001
Posts: 1558
Location: Elizabeth, NJ, 07202

PostPosted: Mon Dec 22, 2008 5:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ssteve235 wrote:
i agree w/ dan. i always do my wieght lifting after my runs. it just seems to make more sense to do it that way


I do agree just for the common sense part of it: you are a runner, not weight lifter: weights should come in the 2nd place. You can do weights every day, tough, as long as you workout different parts of the body one by one.

However, unless you want to run 20 K, half marathon, and the marathon, the best way to work out is to keep any exercise session to 1 full hour and no longer. This means that your weight session, under ideal circumstances, should not follow your running; and that there should be a couple--hour break in between two sessions.

nota bene:
"Triple Seven" as I do call it, or 3 workouts a week are the minimum to make any progress.
Why?
For your last workout to even matter, you must not take more than 2 days rest -- it is just a rule of thumb, of course.
_________________
http://vincovitanj.tripod.com/Do_not_be_a_victim1/index.htmlhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u43o595CARQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x22Alfgv0DY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LgcD2akmeJc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TB0RcWYMwXU
one hand clapping
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
SteveM
Lurker


Joined: 22 Dec 2008
Posts: 2
Location: Tavares,FL

PostPosted: Mon Dec 22, 2008 7:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for all the input, much appreciated. I am always looking to tweak my routine.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Angelo Z
World Class
World Class


Joined: 11 Aug 2007
Posts: 1159
Location: LA, California

PostPosted: Thu Dec 25, 2008 10:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

"They" are just the people who wrote articles about it, etc. From my own physical experience, I find weightlifting first before running better. It just helps my running somehow. After doing 120 reps worth of squats using different weights, my muscle cells temporarily remember the load with helps me in running afterwards. Neuromuscular memory. As I've mentioned a long time ago, you can stand in a door way and press your arms as hard as you can against the sides for 60 seconds. Then walk out of the door way and you will feel your arms rise up on their own. Weightlifting also oxygenates the muscles. Sure you can jog, or do some kind of a warm-up, but that's too easy. It's nice to do something hard without getting tired like weightlifting obviously. It doesn't take too much out of me before I run. There's always arguments from both sides on any topic that sound reasonable. Afterall, arguments are made to sound reasonable to the opponent. Just by looking for which argument sounds convincing won't help much. They need to be backed by scientifical evidence because we live in a scientific world.
_________________
My favorite all time race: Hicham El Guerrouj - Prefontaine Classic Mile 2002 http://youtube.com/watch?v=4YykUTHzOL8
•London 2012 XXX Olympiad•
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website AIM Address Yahoo Messenger MSN Messenger
Dan
Chief Pontificator
Chief Pontificator


Joined: 22 Mar 1999
Posts: 9334
Location: Salem, OR

PostPosted: Thu Dec 25, 2008 10:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Just by looking for which argument sounds convincing won't help much. They need to be backed by scientifical evidence because we live in a scientific world.

Okay then, show us some scientific research claiming that weight lifting prior to running leads to better running results...

Dan
_________________
I get injured so you don't have to.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Indeurr
Olympic Medalist
Olympic Medalist


Joined: 08 Aug 2001
Posts: 1558
Location: Elizabeth, NJ, 07202

PostPosted: Thu Dec 25, 2008 4:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dan wrote:
Quote:
Just by looking for which argument sounds convincing won't help much. They need to be backed by scientifical evidence because we live in a scientific world.

Okay then, show us some scientific research claiming that weight lifting prior to running leads to better running results...

Dan


Not looking for a study, I have to answer that it may work for some people, but iut would be highly unusual that a long and heavy workout would help a distance runner.

A little bit of evidence to support AngeloZ's claim in the smallest of ways is that boosting hormonal levels before running could help in ... running. However from my experience 20 pushup's seem to do the "trick!" Not a long workout.

On the other hand, AngeloZ is still growing.

Over all; however, I must agree with Dan and not AngeloZ.

The problem with the scientific research is that it aims at what works for at the very best 95-99% of people (usually 2 standard deviations), and does not address the needs of very sepcial cases: AngeloZ may be a special case.

Example: running down a very moderate slope, in many studies, did improve 60 m dash times of 90% new participants, did not help 9%, and 1% ran 60m slower.

Most likely explenation, however, is that AngeloZ is trying harder and not running easier after the weight lifting workout: simply placebo effect.
_________________
http://vincovitanj.tripod.com/Do_not_be_a_victim1/index.htmlhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u43o595CARQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x22Alfgv0DY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LgcD2akmeJc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TB0RcWYMwXU
one hand clapping
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Angelo Z
World Class
World Class


Joined: 11 Aug 2007
Posts: 1159
Location: LA, California

PostPosted: Fri Dec 26, 2008 10:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can't find any studies on it supporting it, but from my own experience, I have no trouble. From my own experience, I felt no difference in going down to sea level from Colorado. It's weird because most studies don't apply to me. I'm using altitude because it's a better example now. I haven't felt a difference, not even a tiny bit. The only thing I felt was more humidity. I could care less about what studies show because I've made gains in weightlifting itself before running. I've ran 2 miles during the school day at race pace, and was still able to do my extra hard run at night. I've weightlifted after running too. I hated it. I was all exhausted and couldn't put much effort in. I've done this right after running, and 2 hours after running.
_________________
My favorite all time race: Hicham El Guerrouj - Prefontaine Classic Mile 2002 http://youtube.com/watch?v=4YykUTHzOL8
•London 2012 XXX Olympiad•
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website AIM Address Yahoo Messenger MSN Messenger
Angelo Z
World Class
World Class


Joined: 11 Aug 2007
Posts: 1159
Location: LA, California

PostPosted: Fri Dec 26, 2008 10:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

And Indeurr, if I am trying harder while feeling great from the placebo, then that should be better. I won't deny that I don't feel better after weightlifting when I run. You know what's even more bizarre? A couple days after I weightlift, my muscles are very sore. I can still run without any problems even though my muscles are extremely sore. I also get less stitches when my core is very sore from weightlifting again. One day I did so many squats that the days after I could barely walk. I couldn't even straighten out my leg. Everytime I would walk, I would have to walk with my knees bent. I still went out and ran on that day. For the first 10 minutes it was extremely painful, but then my muscles went numb all the way. I ran on the treadmill, so I did couldn't of showed any signs in decreased pace. I've only weightlifted like this twice. I don't quite get stitches, but I do sometimes feel pain as the beginning of a stitch in my sides though it never reaches a real side stitch. A sore core helped me prevent this.
_________________
My favorite all time race: Hicham El Guerrouj - Prefontaine Classic Mile 2002 http://youtube.com/watch?v=4YykUTHzOL8
•London 2012 XXX Olympiad•
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website AIM Address Yahoo Messenger MSN Messenger
Dan
Chief Pontificator
Chief Pontificator


Joined: 22 Mar 1999
Posts: 9334
Location: Salem, OR

PostPosted: Fri Dec 26, 2008 11:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I can't find any studies on it supporting it, but from my own experience, I have no trouble.

If you don't have any research to support your point, do everyone a favor and don't shoot down opposing viewpoints with statements like, "They need to be backed by scientifical evidence because we live in a scientific world" and "they say that you should run *after* you weight train." I'm already of the opinion that most of what you say is b.s. You just dig yourself a deeper hole with exchanges like that.

Quote:
It's weird because most studies don't apply to me.

In which case, you shouldn't be giving out irresponsible advice to others.

Dan
_________________
I get injured so you don't have to.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Angelo Z
World Class
World Class


Joined: 11 Aug 2007
Posts: 1159
Location: LA, California

PostPosted: Fri Dec 26, 2008 5:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Look, there is evidence that weight lifting oxygenates the muscles before running. There is evidence like Indeurr said, that weight lifting increases hormone levels. http://sportsmedicine.about.com/od/training/a/ExerciseOrder.htm

About the second paragraph, I found that I was exhausted even while lifting after running. "As always, my advice is the exact opposite of Angelo's. I don't know who "they" are, but I advise against running after lifting. That's a good way to pull a muscle, and best case scenario, you practice being slow and sluggish. Switch it around -- run then weights -- and you get the running quality in and still get effort-based lifting that is plenty effective. " There's only 1 scientific point in that and that point is that you practice being slow. My legs were trembling from squats after I ran. The thing is that oxygenating the muscles is more important for running than weightlifting. It helps with putting more force into the ground because the muscles are temporarily adjusted to a higher effort. I also mentioned neuromuscular memory AND gave an example that you can test out to prove my point.

Now about "shooting down a view" that's just the way you see it. Arguing isn't a bad thing. The word "consequence" isn't a bad thing either. Even political figures can pull random things out of their %$@ while trying to keep it respectfully. Now I didn't pull out anything, those are facts. It's a fact that standing in a door way with your arms against the sides for 60 minutes will make your arms rise up after. Once again "terrble advice" is another opinion. I said from the very beginning it was my opinion.

"Well they say that you should run *after* you weight train. As for my opinions, that doesn't really matter. Just make a pattern between running and weight lifting that suits you physically and meets your rest."

You make a "Much ado about something" ~Shakespeare sound like it's something radical. You know, you can just tell from the vocabulary one uses that they are really taking it too seriously. And how can you pull a muscle, weightlifting beforehand will stretch those muscles out. Better yet, even more muscle fibers will be stretched than stretching. Muscle tissues have layers. When you weight lift, you get to hit those extra layers under the main layers. Did you know that the brain favors muscle fibers? So when you break the bond between those main fibers, the brain will turn to using the weaker fibers for running. It's not enough to highly impact ones stamina if an individual is running at least 60 minutes. If it was a marathon, well then all power to ya.
_________________
My favorite all time race: Hicham El Guerrouj - Prefontaine Classic Mile 2002 http://youtube.com/watch?v=4YykUTHzOL8
•London 2012 XXX Olympiad•
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website AIM Address Yahoo Messenger MSN Messenger
Dan
Chief Pontificator
Chief Pontificator


Joined: 22 Mar 1999
Posts: 9334
Location: Salem, OR

PostPosted: Fri Dec 26, 2008 5:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I give up... Neutral

I will go back to just monitoring your posts for inappropriate content. It isn't worth arguing with someone who changes their stance every few seconds. Your endless, repetitive, unsubstantiated drivel has already driven off many of the regulars (not my opinion, they've told me that directly), so it's not like many people are checking in, concerned what you have to say at this point. Just as well, because it's way beyond reckless.

Dan
_________________
I get injured so you don't have to.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Indeurr
Olympic Medalist
Olympic Medalist


Joined: 08 Aug 2001
Posts: 1558
Location: Elizabeth, NJ, 07202

PostPosted: Fri Dec 26, 2008 6:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AngeloZ, you do speculate too much and, no offense meant, it is too much of AngeloZ show, but you may be a genius like Bruce Lee was a genius; however, you should stay away from coaching others!
No offense meant!
It is very hard to understand some of your ideas--you are all over the place, like Dan wrote: please simplify for Us mere mortals. Wink
Another thing: you should try to get a master's degree or even a Ph. D. in sports science. Do your own research and prove all of the old timers in these fora wrong with solid evidence!
_________________
http://vincovitanj.tripod.com/Do_not_be_a_victim1/index.htmlhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u43o595CARQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x22Alfgv0DY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LgcD2akmeJc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TB0RcWYMwXU
one hand clapping
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Run-Down Forums Forum Index -> Training Talk All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Goto page 1, 2  Next
Page 1 of 2

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2002 phpBB Group