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Micah Ward · Posted: Fri Mar 15, 2002 3:47 pm Post subject:

Well it is about time we got another distance fan in the group. I am curious Guru why you rate Shorter above Rodgers. Do you think Shorter's Olympic races are more significant than Rodgers' winning Boston and NYC 4 times each? It can certainly be argued that the Olympics are the ultimate competition for a runner but I am inclined to bring Rodgers at least to an equal level with Shorter because Boston and NYC attract Olympic caliber fields.

I would also be interested in your thoughts on my arguments for Ann Trason that are in the earlier pages of this discussion. By the way, Trason was named as female ultrarunner of the year by Ultrarunning magazine for 2001. That is her 12th such award in the last 14 years. Dan will have a legitimate argument concerning Ann's competition but I still find her to be an amazing athlete!!!

Got to go. Wife's on the way home with a Brewsterburger!

Distance_Guru · Posted: Sat Mar 16, 2002 9:08 pm Post subject:

I put Shorter ahead of Boston Billy based on the fact that he had success at the Olypmics which is in my mind the penicle of our sport.
Although as far as best American marathoner I would dare say that the only other male that belongs in the conversation with Bill and Frank would be Alberto Salazar.

As For Ann to be perfectly truthful I don't keep up with the world of Ultra that much although the one thing I am ablsolutly sure of is that she has domonated that sport like no one else.

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Time is the fire in which we burn

Distance_Guru · Posted: Sat Mar 16, 2002 9:16 pm Post subject:

Conway, I will admit that Pre probably deserves to be on any list of greatest Americans. But as for whether or not Pre is overrated I think that there is no doubt that he is. It seems like everytime I turn around some one is putting him in a "the greatest runners of all time" list and that is obsured. As good as Pre was he couldn't hold the jocks of guys like Lasse-Gold in the 5k and 10k in back to back Olympics-Viren
and Emil-Gold medals in the 5k, 10k and Marathon in the same Olympics-Zatopek, who I personally regaurd as the two greatest distance runners of all time (although Geb is gaining on these two). Smile

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Time is the fire in which we burn

Dan · Posted: Sat Mar 16, 2002 10:04 pm Post subject:

Micah, I have no argument with your deserving appreciation of Trason. Smile

Dan

Conway · Posted: Sun Mar 17, 2002 11:40 am Post subject:

Ditto for Micah and his appreciation for Transon .. TRanson's domination of Ultras is greater than say Jordan's domination of basketball or Woods domination of golf !!!

Guru, I agree with your assessment of Pre in that while he should be right there with greatest AMERICAN runners of all time, I would not begin to rank him among all time greats around the world ... He had the potential and the mentality to be .. But was cut down before he could realize that potential ..

I personally would add SAid Aoutia to the loist you mentioned ... He was Olympic class and competed and medalled from 800 through 5000 ... THAT is serious range .. And was sub 1:44, sub 3:30, and sub 13:00 !!! And I think that Gebresellassie has to be considered the king of em all .. One his performances bear it out .. Two Zatopek was great but had minimal competition ... And I have to say I have a problem with Viren in that he did nothing except run well in the Olympics .. One of the great Olympic competitors of all time to be sure (although blood doping may mitigate that), but he did nothing outside the Olympics !!!! So kind of hard to say greatest of all time when he wasn't even competing ... But his Olympic performances were astounding ....

Distance_Guru · Posted: Tue Mar 19, 2002 9:59 am Post subject:

Aouita could probably be added to the discussion. And I can't beleive I left out Paavo Nurmi the original "Flying Finn" and his 7 Olympic gold medals (although some of those were in events no longer contested in the Olympics). As for Zatopek not competeing that much and Viren only doing well in the Olympics. When I am ranking the greatest at anything I look for those that did there best when it counted the most. Saying that a runner only is good in the Olympics is like saying a hitter is only good with runners on base. That is when you want them to be the best. I'm a little hesitant to put Geb ahead of these other great runners because he is still active but he is without a doubt in the conversation.

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Time is the fire in which we burn

Conway · Posted: Tue Mar 19, 2002 12:19 pm Post subject:

Distance_Guru · Posted: Wed Mar 20, 2002 12:41 pm Post subject:

Conway, Geb is without a doubt the best distance runner in the world running right now. Smile

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Time is the fire in which we burn

Conway · Posted: Wed Mar 20, 2002 2:47 pm Post subject:

Which i take it to mean that you don't want to consider him on an all tme basis .. Despite his myriad of accomplishments ?!?!?

Distance_Guru · Posted: Wed Mar 20, 2002 6:33 pm Post subject:

I said he belongs in the conversation and I would have no real problem with other people putting him at the top of their lists. I just don't like to go around saying that someone is the greatest ever until they have finished their careers. It's like the value of a painting. I'll only shell out a zillion dollars for it until the painter is dead. Smile

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Time is the fire in which we burn

Dan · Posted: Wed Mar 20, 2002 10:12 pm Post subject:

I find it interesting that "greatest ever" discussions tend to polarize into those who think the current crop of athletes is best and those who believe the ancient ones are. Not that this discussion is necessarily headed that way, but it's got a bit of that flavor.

Distance_Guru · Posted: Thu Mar 21, 2002 9:08 am Post subject:

That of was a generalization on my part. I think one more Olympic gold and I will put Geb at the top of my all time list for the world to see. As a matter of fact I think that the global level of compotition in Track is better now than it has ever been and therefore it is harder to for an athlete to distinguish himself from all the other excellent runners out there. Which makes Gebs success even more impressive. That said I also feel that there are so many more chances for an athlete to succeed, with all the world championships, goodwill, Pan Am, Golden League, ect. meets out there. The sport is now perfessional, where as prior to that athletes outside the US were being subsidized by their countries to do one thing, win Olympic medals. Now, athletes are sponsored by shoe companies that demand they run a certain time or place at a certain level at x number of meets in order to give their product as much exposure as possible. This is the primary reason that I put so much weight behind Olympic Gold when considering the greatest of all time.

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Time is the fire in which we burn

Conway · Posted: Thu Mar 21, 2002 11:51 am Post subject:

Ahhhh ... But the combination of more quality athletes at the upper levels PLUS more champinships caliber meets to compete in EQUALS many more opportunities to fail ...

In the past an athlete had only one or two opportunitites ever 4 years to either shine or be considered a failure ... That opportuntity for failure is now magnified ...

Answer this question - Has anyone in any track and field discipline accomplished more than Geb has (retired or active) ??? And then look at all the opportunities he has had to fail ... And all those who have taken shots at him ... Wink

Distance_Guru · Posted: Fri Mar 22, 2002 12:05 pm Post subject:

MJ in the 200 and 400 has to be close, Carl Lewis in the LJ and Jesse Owens in his day sure accomplished a lot.And of coarse Edwin Moses in the Hurdles, the guy didn't loose a race for something like 11 years. I hate to say this but consistancy in sprints and feild events is more impressive to me than distance running because of the smaller margin for error. It is possible to beat a sprinter that is actually better than you if he makes a tiny mistake. In distance running that margin for error is a lot bigger, in hurdles you need a good start good form over the hurdles and good speed all the way around, if you mess up it's over and you loose. Geb has a huge advantage racing a 10k he has options. He can try to out run the field from the start, becuase he can run a faster for the full race than anyone provided he is having a descent day, or he can hang around and leave it to the kick in which he can out sprint just about anyone that could hang with him. In other words there are options to the distace runner that aren't available to athletes in other event areas. But again I'm not saying Geb shouldn't be in the conversation I just think that there are other that should.

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Time is the fire in which we burn

Micah Ward · Posted: Fri Mar 22, 2002 12:41 pm Post subject:

Hi guys, I've been in school the last two weeks trying to make my knowledge bigger...I think all I did was pull a muscle in my brain.

I don't mind putting Geb at the top of the list now. After all his accomplishments in track he is now venturing into the world of road racing. Running Times ranks him as the number 1 road racer in the world. That is the kind of versatility that can be added to his accomplishments already to justify an argument for "greatest of all time". Can't wait until he tries a marathon.

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