Run-Down Forums

[Justin]

There are three common reasons for suspecting drug use:

1. They come from a country I don't trust
2. I've never heard of them
3. They've improved a lot

1 is pure prejudice, 2 is pure ignorance and 3 is pure stupidity.

The Turkish 1500m runner, Ayhan, led the early stages of the WC 1500m final last year but couldn't maintain it. She won the WUG last year and her best prior to the EC was 4:03 from 2000. She's no mug and the fact that she's not raced this year to me just indicates how focused she was on becoming Turkey's first ever European Champion.

As for Kenteris, well the problem with him seems to be that (1) he's white, which means he can't sprint and therefore must be cheating; (2) he's from Greece and we all know Greeks are untrustworthy and (3) he doesn't chase dollars all over the European circuit but prefers to focus on the major championships - something he's won one of each year for the last three. It's absurd. The man's a champion.

As for Ceplak, well front-running to a time 1.5 seconds slower than Kelly Holmes personal best seems poor grounds for Kelly Holmes to make snide accusations. Ceplak hasn't come from nowhere - she ran 2:00.9 in 1997 and 1:58.7 last year.

The whole thing sickens me. Cheap, snide innuendo and nods and winks have become the standard defence mechanism for beaten athletes unable to accept defeat by a better runner. Ayhan and Ceplak provided two of the most inspirational performances of the EC and they should be praised. As for Kenteris, well he's at least a yard faster than any other 200m runner in the world right now so I suggest the others quit whining and get on with trying to beat a man who has shown what it means to be a championship runner.

Justin

[Dan]

I would add a fourth sub-category, of sorts: The beaten athletes who accuse others are often themselves accused or suspected when in a winning position at other times.

I don't share your disgust for the accusations and innuendos. I actually think they're somewhat necessary if we're to see a change for the better in the sport. Without that ugly side, the powers that be will continue to pretend a problem does not exist.

[Distance_Guru]

Justin, that just might have been the most intellegent post I've seen on these boards. As I've said many times I believe that cheating is much less prevelent than many think. I look at this almost like the witch hunts of old. We go around pointing the finger at every athlete that for whatever reason doesn't fit our preconcieved notion of what an athlete of their caliber should be. And then when they reply with their only real defense "test me I'm clean" and pass the tests. We give the standard your taking drugs that can't be detected line and burn them at the stake of public opinion. If she sinks she has a clean soul and will go to heaven, if she floats she's a witch. If your slow your clean, if your fast you're a cheater.
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Time is the fire in which we burn

[Dan]

[Distance_Guru]

In other words in your book, they're a witch whether they float or not.
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Time is the fire in which we burn

[Dan]

You're the one talking about witches, not me... My point was that the analogy doesn't hold up all that well. If we want to take it further, there's no end to the reasons why people would cheat in athletics. I think it was 60 Minutes that ran a special two weeks ago about young children and when they learn to lie/cheat. Pretty much from the time they can talk, it's completely natural for them to tell lies. Why should it be any different with adults? With your chosen analogy, where's the natural incentive to be a witch??? If there's no incentive, then the proverbial witch hunt is a societal paranoia that I fail to understand... With the undeniable amount of incentive to cheat in athletics and any other walk of life where we're measured by our relative success, I see it as incredibly naive to assume cheating does not take place.

Now, maybe you would care to enlighten me as to how the analogy holds up to anything more than superficial analysis?

Dan

[Distance_Guru]

First of all as I have stated many times I do believe cheating takes place. I simply don't think it is happening on as grand a scale as you are insisting. As for my witch refrence my point was that just like with witch hunts. Usually the people that are accused have no hard evidence against them. Radcliffe is an angry voice for a clean sport and then is successful. And with no evidence other than their own paranoia of something that can't be seen people accuse her of cheating. An old woman lives alone with a couple of cats and talks to herself. With no evidence other than the townsfolks paranoia of something they can't see they accuse her of witch craft. Sure lieing and cheating are human nature for all of us. But just because we all do it as 3 year olds at every occasion doesn't mean that as adults we won't choose to be honest. And just as those things are human nature sure is paranoia of the unknown or the not understood and the tendency to accuse people for that which we do not know or fully understand.
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Time is the fire in which we burn

[Dan]

I understand what you're saying, but you've either ignored or chosen to avoid my main objection to the analogy: People have every incentive in the world to cheat in sports, but where's the incentive to be a witch? If there is such great incentive, then there's equally great reason to assume people will give in to the temptation, so suspicion is well founded.

[Distance_Guru]

From what I understand the inncentives to be a witch weren't all that different from the inncentives to cheat as an athlete. It would give you an advantage over others and power. Someone wanted to marry the man you loved, you could curse them with a disease. The townsfolk were mean to you, cause a plague. Power, a pretty good inncentive.

[quote=]"If she is clean and so vastly superior to her competition who she claims (claimed, actually; she doesn't seem to be saying anything on the matter now that she's winning some races) is cheating, then why does she care what they're doing? It obviously isn't affecting her"[/quote]

Maybe because cheating is wrong. As someone that makes a living in this sport I find illeagal drug use to be offensive, and an afront to the very princeiples of fair play and compotition that this sport was founded on. Whether a cheater wins or looses is irrealevent, they are a cheater. Which in my book is the worst label you can stick on a person. And has Paula backed off that much in her stand. Sure she hasn't brought any signs to major championships lately, but idologically has she backed off her anti-drug stand in interviews? I haven't really seen that much on her one way of the other. And really she has had so much of her success recently how much time has she had to make other kinds of headlines. She won the world x-c last year, but then this year has been wild with her defending her x-c title, winning London and now winning the EC's. With all the compotitions and focus that she must be giving her training and racing is it a big surprise that in the last six months if she hasn't picketed a Golden League meet with a sandwich board that says "down with cheaters". My point is just because she hasn't done anything that extreme recently doesn't mean she's changed her beliefs.
_________________
Time is the fire in which we burn

[Conway]

To cheat or not to cheat ... THAT is the question ... Whether tis nobler to finish out of the medals with clean body, or to sufer the ravages of excessive drug use that riddles the body in older age yet go to your grave with medal or record or both !!!!

Ah what type of play would dear Shakespear have written ????

Well (in the words of Jim Rome) here's my take ...

Sport (in general) is dirty ... why ??? Money ... (and percieved glory) ... Who is dirty (or in another form, how many) ??? Who knows ?? No way to tell because the users (and I will be using this word from now on due to my own biases against the word cheat in context with this topic) are ahead of the testers and will probably stay there ...

[Conway]

Let's face it ... Some have been caught and punished (Ben Johnson, Grit Breuer, Dennis Mitchell) ... Some have been caught and not been punished becasue of various "excuses" (Linford Christie, Kim Collins, Justin Gatlin - I say Gatlin hasn't been punished becasue he really didn't miss anything) ... And some have never been caught but have been suspected (Carl Lewis, FloJo, Michael Johnson) ... I used the names I did, becasue most of them I like and therefore hard to accuse me of "hating" them or having anythign against them for any reason ...

Then we have entire groups (Soviet Union, East Germany or pick your eastern bloc country before the fall of the wall) .. Chinese - Ma's Army ... Any White sprinter under 20.00 or near 10.00 ... Any woman approaching WR level in ANY event save the pole vault or steeple .. Any male appraoching WR level in any event involving speed including any sprint, and either hurdle race ...

[Conway]

An earlier post said if you're slow you're clean ... How about if you're slow you just don't have the where with all to have a pharmacist on payroll ...
These are the times in which we exist ...

I'm not cynical enough to believe that the entire sport is using drugs ... But neither am I naive enough to believe that it is limited to just a few ... All i know is that I DON'T know who is or isn't and therefore I point NO fingers at anyone ... And what is MOST irritating to me is that the bigest finger pointers are ATHLETES - but ONLY when they aren't winning !!! Carl suspected Ben for years yet not until Ben hit the line first did the whining start ... Same for Gwen Torrence of the Germans ... And those who have been mentioned earlier in this thread ... Yet NOT ONE ATHLETE HAS COMPLAINED ABOUT A DRUG USING LOSER !!!!! So I guess the message is drug use is alright until it results in gold medals !!! And it is ok to point fingers without proof ...

[Conway]

Where am I going with all of this ??? Well ...

1. As long as wins can result in money there will be those who use drugs ...

2. As long as the users can stay ahead of the testers use will escalate ...

3. Without specific knowledge of who users are there is no need to try to identify them ..

4. The sport (and all sports) does itself a disservice by having any kind of rules against something they can NOT adequately enforce ...

5. Those who complain against Radcliff, Kenteris, Thanou, the Chinese or others and are themselves are drug users need to get better drugs themselves, work harder, or leave the sport ...

6. Those who complain against Radcliff, Kenteris, Thanou, the Chinese or others and are clean need ot evaluate how well tlhey believe they can do and either work harder, or leave the sport ...

7. THE POWERS THTA BEE NEED TO GET A CLUE AND TRULY CLEAN UP THE SPORT BY CLEANING UP THE RULES WHICH LEGISLATE IT !!! As they are creating a divide that is tearing the sport apart right at the seams ... Just as they finally had ot wake up to professionalismm theya re going to have to wake up to the right individuals to train as they see fit ... And to put their bodies to the abuse of drugs just as they put their bodies to the abuse of over training, severly hard training, and all of the things that athletes do that are "abnormal" for normal body use ...

OK ... Off my soap box now ...

Conway

[Conway]

Dan .. Can that post be put together and moved over to the sprint forum with the similar topic ???

[Dan]

Whew, this just turned into a lengthy thread!