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USGOLD2004
Water Boy
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Joined: 13 Jul 2004
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Location: Albany, NY

PostPosted: Mon Jul 19, 2004 12:05 pm    Post subject: 100m Reply with quote

So what would you say if someone broke a world record.

LOL.

Actually I'm starting to believe that, you will rarely see a 100m race with more than 5 guys under 10 seconds, the olympic trials proved it, 4 were sub-10, and the rest were over 10s.

As a side question, if Tim Montgomery is found guilty, do you all think MO should get his WR back like he deserves it?

I sure do.

Jason
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Dan
Chief Pontificator
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 19, 2004 12:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
So what would you say if someone broke a world record.

Depends what the question is...

Quote:
if Tim Montgomery is found guilty, do you all think MO should get his WR back like he deserves it?

Not particularly, no. I find it highly unlikely that any top tier sprinter of the past 15 years at minimum got to that level completely clean. Many will call me overly pessimistic for that view, but events over the past year are strongly supporting the position I've been stating for a number of years now.

Removing records for one known cheat (who, it must be stressed, was not a known cheat until 2 years after the fact) is an ugly bandaid... It implies that others who have not been caught were clean, when in fact all it means is the newly reappointed record holders haven't been caught yet.

Dan
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Paul
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 19, 2004 2:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree with Dan, I don't like the idea of banning someone retroactively. By the way, the only person I can think of, recently, who openly embraces the coaching techniques of Charlie Francis is Steve Bennett out of Australia. I applaud him for plowing through all the accusations and still acknowledge the coaching contributions he has made.
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Dan
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 19, 2004 2:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bennett's been a huge fan of Francis for as long as I've known him -- going back to around '96 or '97 on the t-and-f list.

Dan
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Conway
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 19, 2004 5:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Frankly, I think it is time to discard all of the existing records and start from scratch ... And use teh most stringent testing available for those who set new records ... Urinalisis is fine for general testing, but when it comes to records no expense should be spared ...
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Dan
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 19, 2004 8:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That might catch a few more things, but it still doesn't address undetectable drugs like HGH and until recently THG. Puts us right back in the same boat of having to deal with retroactive banning and record removal...

Dan
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Conway
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 20, 2004 6:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well it seems to me (having read Speed Trap a couple times now) that using the athletes Endocrine Profiles could be used to determine a "positive" test ... That is what Ben was convicted on even though they did not know what specific steroids were used ... Given the fact that we know that "designer" drugs are being used, I think that would be a "fair" method of detection ...

That leave on HGH which there is a test available now .. Not saying that the chemists don't have anything at all that can slip through, but that would put us somewhere between 90% and 100% capable of "detection" ...

Knowing that what we have on the books as of today is a farce, I find those pretty good odds .. Much better than what we have today ... Which is a set of records that "promote" the use of drugs in order to obe considered and "elite" athlete ...
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Dan
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 20, 2004 7:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Is the HGH test available now? I thought it was still having the kinks worked out...

The endocrine profile test might address the unknowns, but my impression of it was that the test itself was still too much of an unknown to be relied upon.

Dan
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Conway
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 20, 2004 7:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I believe the HGH test is going to be used in Athens ... Will have to check to make sure ... As for the Endocrine Profile, I got the impression that it was very accurate for streroid use itselef, just not in breaking down the specific items used ... And of course at that time there was the idea of "without a reasonable doubt" ... But it was the lynchpin in Ben's suspension and removal of the Seoul mark, so a presedent has already been established ...

With all this public cleansing going on the sport needs a fresh start ... And athletes need to feel that they have a shot at being the best WITHOUT using drugs ... The current record book is a farce ... On both sides ... Time for the sport to do something drastic ... No one else will know or care outside of the sport anyway ...
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Dan
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 20, 2004 7:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Two thoughts:

1) As far as I know, the endocrine profile has never been used since. If they're as serious about catching cheats as they claim, and if it were as reliable and supportable as you believe, you have to figure it would've been used on numerous occasions since.

2) Consider that Francis was the coach bitten by the endocrine profile and he clearly has remained at the forefront of the sport to this day. It stands to reason that he is wary of that test coming back to haunt him and has devised ways around it.

I just don't see there ever being a comprehensive testing system that won't rely at least 50% on retroactive bans. And anything retroactive is a very bad solution, in my book.

Dan
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Conway
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 20, 2004 7:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well on point number one, I hate to say this but I would imagine that the Endocrine profile has NOT been used since because the sport has been more interested in covering up teh positive tests of its stars than truly exposing the cheats and cleaning up the sport ...

That being the case there would be no need for Francis or anyone else to try to figure out a way around the Profile ... and since the Endocrine profile is based on the existingi levels of various substances that occur naturally in your body that would be an extremely hard test to cheat !!! We're not talking about "masking" or "covering up" what has put in your body, but rather taking a look at how those substances have "affected" your body ... Two totally different things .... Actually a highly sophisticated form of "non analtical" !!! Wink
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Kishan Gill
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Joined: 24 Jan 2003
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 20, 2004 12:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It,s great to be back online discussing track again after 2 months. I had the pc unplugged due to renovation work.

On my return i would like to gloat on how i thought shawn crawford is the man, and this was before he beat mo in eugene i think.

Unfortunately the brits do not seem to be of olympic final standard, maybe mlf if he can get back into form on time, and they are even worse in the 200m.

Looks like it will be the carribean runners who could humble the yanks once again.
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Conway
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 20, 2004 2:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's my look at Athensand the 100 meters:

Main contenders for the title:

Mo Greene - US Trials winner .. Defending Olympic Champion .. 3 time World Champ .. Former WR holder at 9.79 .. Back to his consistent form this year ..

Justin Gatlin - US Trials runner up .. Twice PR’d at the Trials (9.96 & 9.92) .. Upped his game at the Trials after so-so Spring ..

Shawn Crawford - US Trials number 3 .. World leader at 9.88 .. Has been at a new level of speed and consistency this year ..

Asafa Powell - Jamaican Champion .. Seemed ready to break through at last year’s WC til felled by DQ … Picked up where he left off with a blazing series of wins this season ..

Others to watch:

Steve Mullings - Number two Jamaican has been on the rise all Spring .. Seems on the verge of sub 10 ..

Darrell Brown - Top Trini at last year’s WC with a silver and a 10.01 PR .. Injured this Spring, could be ready by the Games ..

Francis Obikwelu - Europe’s best .. Formerly of Nigeria, now representing Portugal .. Seems to be back to his 1999 form when he was one of the Worlds best young sprinters ..

As of today, this race is shaping up as the USA vs. the Caribbean !!! Aside from those mentioned above others with a shot at making the final are primarily of Caribbean descent … But those mentioned above have the inside shot at the medals …

I would consider Greene an early favorite .. But only because of his championships history and his competitive nature .. If anyone else wins this race it will be because they take the title away from him as he will not give it willingly … While any of the trio of Powell/Gatlin/Crawford could do the trick, I give the edge here to Powell .. His race is the most complete next to Greene - solid start, transition, and finish … And he is the smoothest sprinter of the group .. In a tight final (which this should be) he will fare well … Gatlin and Crawford are both closers … And both will be closing fast .. Question is whether they will run out of room before they can run the others down .. I tip Gat for bronze because he is the more consistent starter (at least he was at the Trials) and Crawford tends to forget his form and depend on his brute strength ..

The only thing I see breaking up this foursome is injury .. This year they have been a breed apart .. Will take improvement on the order of Brown’s in last year’s WC for someone else to get in on this party …

Note .. In watching video upon video of Olympic seasons past recently, it seems that Zurich is a great indicator of how the Games will turn out … This year’s Weltklasse is Aug 6th - the first two rounds of the 100 are on Aug 21st …
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Kishan Gill
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 21, 2004 10:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

and don,t forget collins who has proved to be a big champs performer although he does not have the stats to back him up.

Another thing that appeals to be about collins is his natural lean build suggesting a drugfree athlete in a sport tarnished by the abuse of drugs.
He is also a very down to earth guy with his head firmly screwed on who seems to cope well under pressure even though he will be going to the games as the current world champ.

Although his current form suggests otherwise i feel he can raise his game and make the finals (an achievement by itself considering the amount of talent in this event this year) at least and possibly medal.
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Dan
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 21, 2004 12:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm also of the mind Collins will be a factor, although I haven't seen anything from him of late to indicate he's ready to compete in a sub 9.90 type race. He should have a shot at the bronze, though.

Dan
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