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Water Boy
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 05, 2004 10:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

When that person can run 10 miles a day comfortably they may then be ready for speedwork. I tell marathoners that when they can run 20 miles at the drop of a hat then they are ready for the fast stuff.
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Dan
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 05, 2004 10:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think it's safe to say:

a) a distance runner (5-10k) and up will come closer to his or her max potential through just quality mileage than through primarily speed work.

b) a sprinter will come closer to his or her max through primarily speed work than a "base" oriented system.

Both factors are important in any athlete wishing to be successful, but the balance changes as the focus changes. If compromises have to be made (*) for any variety of reasons, then it makes sense to err on the side of which ever equation fits your event best.

(*) I'm not a believer that compromises have to be made to quite that extent...

Dan
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Micah Ward
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 05, 2004 11:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good points from all.

I especially like Dan's point about quality mileage being the best for distance improvement. And that was what I was moving toward with my questions.

Ward's Worthless Opinion is that a person who wants to improve their 10K time, and can already run the distance comfortably, would benefit from (for example) a 4 mile run at 7:30 pace more than they would a 12 miler at 9:00 pace.

Does this make sense?
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Water Boy
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 05, 2004 11:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, that makes sense, but when they can run 12 at 7:30 pace it is even better. That is my premise. You are getting much fitter that way.

Does that make sense?

I am enjoying the thread. I still say you can get to 90-95% of race maximum by simply traing the aerobic system. Ever look at Ingrid Kristiansen's website. Very low anaerobic work, but the aerobic stuff was high octane no doubt. Her and her husband's ideas are very interesting.
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Micah Ward
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 05, 2004 11:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Your points do make sense. I guess the direction I am heading in is specificity of training. If your target event is 10K shouldn't your training be built around runs in the neighborhood of 4-8 miles and close to race pace?

Got to go now and won't be back online until next Tuesday. Everybody enjoy your runs this weekend.
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AM_Runner
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 05, 2004 12:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes thats for sure it is a very interesting thread and enjoyable to discuss

However I think you are both saying the same things in a way - do either of you think that the said 7:30 pace would be anaerobic at any point? I am thinking no which goes back to the quality distance and aerobic base... Aerobic Intervals are probably not frowned upon by either of you be they tak ethe form of a progression type runs or Aerobic Tempos or Steady State Runs or fartleks or whatever you want...

You can train well within that range still get "speed"

Unless someone is stating that "speed work" must be anaerobic and be on the track - but I don't see that
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 05, 2004 12:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

And have a great weekend Micah!
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Dan
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 05, 2004 12:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I still say you can get to 90-95% of race maximum by simply traing the aerobic system.

Without quibbling over the numbers ('cuz I have no grounds to do so), would you agree that that remaining 5-10% of potential is what separates winners from losers and one level from the next? That's where I think the more holistic approach benefits, and I've never been swayed by the argument that you can go fully periodized and focus on base and speed as completely separate entities.

Dan
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 06, 2004 9:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, you have to get on the speed end if you want to max your race times. I was just saying that most runners could continue to travel the aerobic route for a long time and see improvement. I know speedwork is essential for me to run well, but I only get at it for a couple months once or twice a year.
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Conway
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 06, 2004 9:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm curious (been sitting back watching this) if all one does is work on their conditioning and strength, exactly when do you ever work on or develop your race pace ??? And how do you do that ...As it seems to me that if one is going to run say 10K in 29:00 that at some point your body has to become conditioned to running that far at that pace ...

I see lots of talk about building the strength, but isn't part of that being able to hold the desired speed ???
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Dan
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 06, 2004 10:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think the general conditioning approach is that if you can run 60 minutes at 6:00 pace, you've got the aerobic capacity to run 30 minutes at 5:00 pace without having actually trained at that pace.

That's a big difference between the distances in the sprints. With true speed events, the muscles have to be trained to move at that rate. In the distances, the pace is one that any decent athlete can move along at, but holding it takes a great deal of aerobic conditioning.

Dan
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Conway
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 08, 2004 6:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

But, wouldn't that depend on the physical make up of the individual ??? Ratio of fast twitch to slow twitch fibers ??? For example, I am guessing that an athlete like Webb, or El G who seem to have a ton of fast twitch fibers, has to train at much closer to race pace than someone like say Keflezghi (sp) who seems to be much more slow twitched based ...
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Dan
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 08, 2004 9:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't think it's really a fast/slow twitch issue, although that could present an alternative way of possibly getting to the same point. It simply boils down to running as long as it takes to be able to hold a pace that you're already capable of for short durations.

Dan
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Micah Ward
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 12, 2004 7:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think Dan is right on the point I was trying to get across early on. If I want to run a 5K at 6:00 pace what good does it do to run 90 sec quarters with a rest break between each one? All I am doing is training myself to run 400 meters then stop and rest over and over and over. What I need to be doing is longer runs at the 6:00 pace to train the body to hold that pace for 3.1 miles. That may consist of 5 mile runs at 7:00 pace to work on endurance and 2 mile runs at 5:50 to work on race speed. Then put the two together on race day to run the 6:00 pace. It is similar to the training I was doing when I set my 5K pr's........way back before some of you were born. Sad
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Micah Ward
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 16, 2004 7:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Since there has been a lot of input on this thread I thought I would outline my daughter's training plan for her recent marathon and see what ya'll thought. Last year she jogged through her first one, the Marine Corps Marathon, in 4:47:?? so this year she set her sights on the Richmond Marathon and a sub 4 hour goal. We designed a training program to aim for a 9:00 pace which would give her a 3:55:48. The program consisted of 3 types of key workouts on a 4 week cycle. The three workouts were the long run, Yasso 800s and what we called the "half distance" run. The long runs were every other weekend and the Yasso and half distance runs were on the weekends between the long runs. All other runs during the week were comfortable 45-60 minute runs designed to let her legs recover from the key workouts.

Week 1 - Long run that simulates the target pace. All the long runs were run at 9:00-9:15 pace. The idea was to get her used to running long at her target pace. The long runs began at ten miles and then increased by two miles each time with the last one being 24 miles 3 weeks before the target race.

Week 2 - Half distance run. This run was half the distance of the previous long run and was run at 8:00-8:30 pace. The idea here was to take a medium long run that would make the race pace seem easy.

Week 3 - Another long run. Two miles longer than the last and again at 9:00-9:15 pace.

Week 4 - Yasso 800s. I've always been curious about these and the daughter was too. So we started with 3 and gradually worked her way up to 10. In keeping with the Yasso theory she ran the 800s in 3:50-4:00.

She completed this 4 week cycle over and over and as race day approached the 800s dropped into the 3:30-3:40 range and the pace for her 24 mile long run was 8:26. That wasn't planned but just evolved and did not seem to stress her. So she readjusted her goal to a 3:40 which is a Boston Qualilfier for her and on race day ran 3:38:33 which is an 8:20 pace.

Looking back the daughter offered this critique on the plan. She thought taking the long run up to 24 miles was extremely helpful. She also liked the half distance runs. She said those really did make the long run pace feel comfortable and probably led to the long run pace getting faster. She also lifted weights twice a week and said that really helped in keeping her shoulders and arms from getting too tired late in the race. And the Yasso's wound up being a good predicter of her finishing time.

Comments?
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