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Fastest 10m Split in the Near Future
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MiamiD J30
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 24, 2003 2:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

All those high school records are by kids that are 17 or 18 (most likely).
Darrel Brown, ran a 10.09s 100m as an 17 yr old, and and a 10.01s as an 18 yr old.

Quote:
The faster kids have typically been pretty near developed by 18 / 19 ... Those slightly slower have had more room to improve and grow ...


Thats true, but there are always exceptions. He had ran a 10.01s and he just turned 19. Thats pretty amazing. So even though I agree with you Conway, I believe Darrel Brown is a definite exception.
He has a lot of room to improve, and as Dan said way before, rate of improvement is more important than anything.
Maurice Greene was short and was pretty light. But he has and had a very strong upper body, and extremely strong legs. I don't see why people can't keep getting stronger, and perhaps faster.

But...
Quote:
His technique, however seems to be only suited to those around 5'8 to 5'10 with great upper body strength and strong calfs.


John Smith was Greene's coach, and Greene was 5'9, 175 lbs.

Genetic doping is become a very big problem, since some have been reported can increase your strength by 3x (300%), but I forget what the name was.

If people can increase their lower and upper body strength to the limits, and perfect their techniques, that is what will determine, the fastest amn in the world.

Jason
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Dan
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 24, 2003 3:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Genetic doping is become a very big problem

I've heard nothing more than very unsubstantiated rumors with regard to genetic work in the athletics realm.

Dan
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pierrejean
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 25, 2003 4:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Conway wrote:
The only true technical innovation that I can think of is Ben Johnson's start ... THAT was innovative and different and probably dropped his time close to .1 - IMO ...


Isn't Johnson's start technique linked with his extraordinary strength development in his upper and lower body?
From the numbers Franics gives, Ben bench was around 440 lbs and squat was around 600 lbs
From what Ato and Jon said to me, they and Mo bench around 310-320 lbs and squat around 440 lbs.
I wouldn't recommend to anyone Johnson's technique unless their strength level is about equal.
If we look to the women's side, Irina Privalova was without doubt the best starter ever, but her strength stats are lower than her opponents. She achieved so great starts and accelerations thanks to a technique in total accordance with biomechanical criterias. I don't say that the same technique would be applied to everybody, Johnson showed it. But that's not a reason to copy blindely his style, without thinking that the absence of opposition left arm/right leg in his start style wasn't the thing that made him so fast!
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Conway
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 25, 2003 6:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh I am not saying that just anyone should try ot copy Johnson's start ... I'm not sure anyone else could execute it !!! It took great strength to use that start ....

And actually, his start is one reason I point to that drugs alone did not make Ben as fast as he was ... An aid yes ... But not the sole reason many make it out to be ... Ben was EXTREMELY strong ... But that start was strength, balance, timing - perfection ... And could only be executed perfectly .... Either you can or you can't - no in betweens ... And most can't ...

Privalova had your basic start executed to perfection ... She was a female Borzov - extremely technically solid and near flawless execution ... Near robotic in her movements, yet putting everything to gether just right !!!!
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Dan
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 25, 2003 7:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Isn't Johnson's start technique linked with his extraordinary strength development in his upper and lower body?

It was a lot more than just strength. Francis talks in Speed Trap about how Ben naturally started that way, even as a skinny little kid when he first came out to the track. He also went on to say that no one else could pick up the technique.

Dan
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pierrejean
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 25, 2003 9:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maybe only drugs can give Ben's strength! But as you said maximum strength is not the sole point, happily Privalova shows it well.
As a kid, Ben wasn't a good starter, it was noticable on old videos. Ben as well as Angella Issajenko worked a lot on their start, and the improvement didn't occured in a major change in start mechanics, but i'm pretty sure that it was in parallel with max strength improvement, help with drug program. Angella, from what i understand from her book, didn't have the same success mainly because of over-body weight, caused by water retention related to the experimental doses she took.

Their improvement in max speed section occured in reaching full range of motion in the stride cycle (triple extension at take-off) and in reducing ground contact time.
There are several ways to improve maximum speed, and for me the quite big difference in technique styles are only linked to different morphological and natural inner abilities. How do we know if max strength is to improve? IMHO, that's when men reach 11.80m/s and women 10.80m/s. For me, limits in still wind are 12.00 and 11.00.
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Dan
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 25, 2003 10:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Do you know from video when Ben's start began gaining consistency? I don't remember it ever being bad, but I don't have tape to go back and check...

Dan
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pierrejean
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 26, 2003 1:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Evaluation of start consistency can be check without contestation from intermediate times, for start+acceleration, 30m time is a good indicator.
From USSR and IAF researches, i can give this progression:
1986 - 3.86 (9.95)
1987 - 3.80 (9.83)
1988 - 3.80 (9.79)

I don't have found analysis in litterature before 1986 for him, but i think from 1987, he reached his peak in start/acceleration phase.
If you watch Helsinki'83 or LA'84 videos, Ben wasn't yet the starter he was about to be. And from older video shown on a TV report on him (i don't know the title of that documentary), it was clearly shown that the problem was his start.
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Dan
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 26, 2003 11:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

From that 30m data, it actually looks like his start had peaked by at least '86, not '87. He was notoriously weak at the end of races, but half of the improvement that year came after the 30m mark. That would seem to indicate that his whole race improved fairly evenly, not just his start.

Dan
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 26, 2003 12:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pierrejean wrote:
If you watch Helsinki'83 or LA'84 videos, Ben wasn't yet the starter he was about to be. And from older video shown on a TV report on him (i don't know the title of that documentary), it was clearly shown that the problem was his start.


http://www.carllewis.com/video.running.3.html

http://bubonicfilms.com/flicks/TnF/benfront.WMV

View them (if you can) in order.
You will see a huge improvement wihtin the first 30m of his race.
Look closely at Ben in the Seoul 'movie'. And watch the extreme lift he gets off of the ground after the first couple of strides.
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 26, 2003 2:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Are we talking about the start and acceleration phase as the same thing? Confused

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 27, 2003 2:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes I am talking about both...
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 27, 2003 4:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

USSR and GDR scientists used to search times for 30m, in order to not separate start from acceleration and have a better view on athlete's abilities. Transition between start and acceleration is a very difficult point to master, and separating for example 10m times doesn't help. Only 30m time gives a good idea of the quality of this transition.
There are several ways to cut 100m races in phases, but they used this one:
0-30 acceleration
30-60 maximum velocity
60-80 velocity maintenace
80-100 velocity endurance
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Conway
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 27, 2003 7:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

pierrejean wrote:
USSR and GDR scientists used to search times for 30m, in order to not separate start from acceleration and have a better view on athlete's abilities. Transition between start and acceleration is a very difficult point to master, and separating for example 10m times doesn't help. Only 30m time gives a good idea of the quality of this transition.
There are several ways to cut 100m races in phases, but they used this one:
0-30 acceleration
30-60 maximum velocity
60-80 velocity maintenace
80-100 velocity endurance


These distances were the same ones used for Valeri Borzov to evaluate his training as far back as the early 70's ... And if I am not mistaken they were also used for the East German women duringi their hey day in sprinting ... I agree with them as the best evaluation of the start ... The start (IMO) is a combination of the reaction, the movement out of the blocks and getting into good running position ... Personally I hate reaction times because all they tell you is who moved 1st as well as 10m times cause that is just the fist few steps out ... Great starters like Drummond, McTear, Hary, Johnson are out and flying at 30m and from that point have to be caught to be beaten ...

Speaking of Ben, his start technique was there as long as I can remember but his execution was not great (he used the same style in 84 for example) ... But in 86 it started to show its greatness (was good in 85 but REAL good in 86) ... The 86 version was essentially the same as in 87/88 when it was devastating ...
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MiamiD J30
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 27, 2003 4:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think it could also be broken up this way:

0-30m: Main Acceleration
30-50m: Secondary Acceleration
50-70m: Maximum Speed
70-80m: Velocity Maintenace
80-100m: Velocity Endurance

There just different sections of the race,and have the same components, but can be broken up a little more. Also to clarify maximum speed, is when a sprinter reaches their 100% level, or as fast as he possibly could go.

Jason
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