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k gill
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2003 11:59 am    Post subject: us champs Reply with quote

No flashes of greatness in this years meet. Sure, the wind wasn't great but it didn't stop runners in the past setting great times. I find it hard to see the americans dominate at this years worlds. Greene should take the 100 but the 200 seems wide open as does the 110m hurdles.
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Dan
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2003 12:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't think I've ever seen fast sprint times run at Stanford... Neutral

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Conway
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2003 7:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Stanford is a distance track ... Duh ... Great sprint times have never been run there ... NOt sure what the stadium records are but I will look later ... None the less the men's 100 should have gone closer to 10.00 ... The 200 was about all that could be expected ... The 400 was outstanding ...

As for the women, Kelli White's time look even more amazing given it is a distance track .... The women's 100 was impressive ... White was impressive in the 200 ... And Richards was impressive in the 400 given that she is still a teen ... The women's 400 however looks dismal ...

Our hurdlers should finish in the top 4 at Paris ... The only one I see upsetting that is Garcia ... Although the young Chinese hurdler is intreaguing ...

Not sure what meet you were watching ... Flashes of greatness !?!? Washington and White ... An outstanding 200 squad for the men ... Two teens making the women's sprint squad ... Devers making the 100 team after not running a 100 in years ... What would it take for you to consider greatness ??? A WR ??? Not on that track ... Nor with those conditions ... Swirling winds you have to catch just right ... Based on this meet expect sub 20 at Paris ... Perhaps a sub 44 ... A sub 10.8 and a sub 22 ... Is that good enough ???
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Kishan Gill
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 26, 2003 6:56 am    Post subject: us champs Reply with quote

conway, calm down. Just in case you forgot, this is just a friendly discussion group to exchange views on track, nothing more. You seem to get very sensitive about casual comments as if they are a personal attack on someone. We are NOT trying to solve the worlds problems here, so lets keep things in perspective.
I plead guilty for my ignorance of the stanford track, all i meant was that although their were some good performances, no athlete made an impression that could be headline news and remembered for years to come. The void left by track giants like lewis, michael johson and marion jones was all too obvious and no one seem to show the potential to fill those shoes (i may be proven wrong as the season progresses, but remember, i am just giving my opinion, not stating a fact) .
By the way, a stunning performance is when bob hayes runs a 10.06 on a chewed up track.nearly forty years ago. I shudder to think what he could have done on a long-distance track in stanford in 2003.
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Conway
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 26, 2003 9:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not sensitive at all ... Just surprised by comments that seem out of place ... Not sure what void you saw ... Did you just look at results, watch on TV or attend in person ???

I stand by my previous statements regarding the performances ... Kelli White's double was as impresive as anything Marion has ever done in this meet - possibly mmore so given the track and conditions ...

Same for Washington's 400 win .. 44.3 is an outstanding time ... Few situations will lead to anything much faster ... And again the same for the men's 200 ... 20.1 on a "slow" track is indicative of sub 20 potential and two of the top 3 have run sub 20's ...

And an eye opening 100 on that track for the men would be something on the order of a 9.95 ...

There is outstanding talent out there .... As good as the names you mentioned as "icons" of the sport ... Part of the problem withthe sport is that I think too often people want to hold onto the "icons" and forget about what is transpiringin front of their eyes ...

Allen Johnson should be spoken in the same breath as those you mentioned ... His longevity and quality of performance is rivaled by few ...

Guess I just get excited aboutthe sport and find it far too easy to find tthe good out there than to complain about the "void" that I frankly can't seem to find ...
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Dan
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 26, 2003 10:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think the talent is on par with the best we've had, it's just the recognizable personalities (Mo, Marion, Micheal, Carl) are missing. Granted, Mo wasn't completely missing, but only a couple rounds of the 200 is hardly a presence by his standards... Easy to mistake the two.

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Kishan Gill
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 26, 2003 10:29 am    Post subject: us champs Reply with quote

I acknowledge your intelligent analysis.
Maybe my fault is that over the last twenty years so many high standards hve been set that have been way ahead of their time such as carls 19.75 with hands aloft back in 1983, butch reynolds running 43.29 in 1988 and johnson running 19.32 in 1996 that i expect more from these athletes in 2003.

I am not taking anything away from these athletes. as a non-athlete i am in position to do that, however i am saying that due to these exceptional performances, talking about a sub 200m just doesnt seem to raise an eyebrow as it would have done twenty years ago. It is just expected, although a harsh comment as sub10,20 or 44 is no mean feat.
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Conway
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 26, 2003 10:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That is oneof the bigest problems in getting people to understand the sport ... EVeryone wants to compare to the records ... Comparing to the records is NOT what defines an outstanding performance ... There are levels of performance and then there are the records themselves ... And not talking about you perse, but as long as the sport is billed or defined by its records, new people will never learn to understand the performances ....
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Dan
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 26, 2003 10:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You have to take into account the circumstances surrounding times, though. I don't recall Carl's 19.75 specifically, but he had several severely (supposedly) wind aided marks, and MJ's 19.32 came on a very questionable track. Stanford is probably the slowest sprint track you'll see for any major championship. The times don't mean much, they're just numbers...

Aside from MJ at his best, I don't believe there has ever been an athlete for whom talk of sub-20 was ho-hum. Only MJ made it commonplace; other athletes have to be in top form to get there with any regularity...

Butch's run was legendary. Nothing much to add to that. Took him quite a while to build up to that point, so it's not like he was churning out times that no one else has managed. Tyree can be that sort of runner if he stays healthy and focused over the next couple years.

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Kishan Gill
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 26, 2003 11:57 am    Post subject: us champs Reply with quote

I almost wish i didn,t start this topic. If only i knew my remarks could cause such an uproar, you would think we were discussing politics or religion. Do i stand accused of blasphemy?.

I may not be an authority on the subject but i am not a newcomer to the sport either as i have been watching the sport keenly for 23 years and not just the sprints.

Sure, conway maybe an ex-athlete, has been to the major meets in person and wines and dines with the stars on a regular basis and applies his analysis scientifically but he fails to understand the point i am making.

I am not knocking the athletes , i am putting the question of greatness on a bigger scale as the argument has drifted to that subject.

No doubt one meet does not seal the fate of the athletes potential to be great sprinters. Concentrating on the 100m, bernard williams or coby miller maybe the next olympic champions and world record holders, but
maurice greene has been the best sprinter in the world for the past six years (except 2002) and it has come by winning consistently in the major champs. To understand his success, you have to look at his times and his consistency in running at that level. Running is all about times, it is an integral part of it and it cannot be ignored .

Sure, external factors such as wind, temperature and track surface will have an effect, but williams 10.11 proves that he is not on the verge of greatness at the moment. A fully fit greene would probably have run sub10 in stanford.

As i have said before, their are many athletes who have not shown that potential to greatness as yet. I did not mention devers or allen johnson as they have already proved their greatness, they have done it all. As for the others, they do not appear to be dominant enough to stake claim for gold in paris as a carl lewis or michael johnson would have done.
This years championships did not raise any eyebrows, except for poor performances by favourites like montgomery.

As for butch reynolds, he was running 44.10,44.13 and 44.15 in his international debut and those times indicated something special in the near future.

I watched carl lewis run in indianapolis on tv in 1983, and despite his relative inexperience in the 200m he ran 19.75 with his arms held aloft 10 meters from the finish, leaving larry myricks trailing in a credible 20.03. Had he finished the race properly, a world record of 19.5 or 19.6 was a certainty. Again, you cant ignore times. Their will be one hit wonders but when you see a performance like that , you know that athlete is special.
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Dan
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 26, 2003 12:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
If only i knew my remarks could cause such an uproar, you would think we were discussing politics or religion. Do i stand accused of blasphemy?

I don't see the uproar you're referring to. Just a disagreement, and not even a vehement one at that. You have to be willing to be disagreed with if you're going to discuss things in a public forum...

Quote:
A fully fit greene would probably have run sub10 in stanford.

You just contradicted the point you've been trying to make, namely that times are what it's all about and the conditions are a minor factor. If a fully fit Greene were to run a sub-10 at Stanford (I take that to mean high 9.9x), that puts him a full two-tenths off what a fully fit Greene runs elsewhere! That to me says the conditions are a huge factor when it comes to something like extreme track surfaces. If we're figuring the surface to be worth 0.1 to 0.2 (which I think is actually quite accurate, based on the track here at Willamette generally adding 0.2 in the sprints and being a very distance friendly surface), then that's a very good run for Bernard, based on past performances. He's already proven himself to be one of the top sprinters in the world. Maybe this is a sign he's ready to step up to "greatness." Not likely, in my opinion, but that's just an example of the be-all-end-all times telling you vastly different stories depending on how you look at them...

Dan
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Conway
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 26, 2003 2:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes I attend most of the major meets annually ... And yes I once competed fairly well myself ... Too many obligations to wine and dine with the stars, although I have known my share ...

Having said all that, it justs gives me a vantage point from which to look at the sport is all ... Nothing more ... Nothing less ... And I, like Dan, see no great hulabaloo here ... Just some discuss and disagreement ... That's the fun part of taking part in a forum ...

Now on to the topic of greatness ... Times, quite frankly are relatively meaningless UNLESS they are supported by winning ... And mostly winning when it matters ...

Case in point, one Tim Montgomery ... He is the current WR holder ... Yet he gets little respect as of yet ... Why ??? Mo Greene is the former WR holder yet gets continued respect in spite of having an "off year" in 2002 ... Again why ??? Well you addressed it K, becasue he has been a consistent winner ... A dominating force ... To this day an abundance of sprint fans will tell you that Bob Hayes is the greatest sprinter ever - with a 10.05 PR !!! Why ??? Cause he won all in site ... Carl Lewis reign at the top was not nearly as long as some would have you believe, yet he will still go down as one of histories best ... Why ??? His collection of hardware ... You yourself talk of Carl's prowess over 200 meters ... Do you know he only has a couple of top rankings in the event ??? That he rarely lead the yearly list in the event ??? Or that he is behind several others in sub 20's run ??? Yet it is a few WINS (including Indy, and I was there) that give him his place historically in the event ...

Who do people remember more Edwin Moses or Kevin Young ??? Most times you will find Edwin the overwhelming favorite ... Kevin has the record, but Edwin the wins and medals ...

Sometimes a mark will leave a lasting impression .. 29'2 1/2, 19.32, 2:56.16, 43.86 ... Barrier breakers ... Outliers ... But when you've watched the sport for a while the marks give way to visuals ... Lewis and Myriccks trading 28 footers in the rain in Indy in 88 ... Bob Hayes in 64 demolishing that 100 field ... MJ in 96 churning down the stretch ... Tommie Smith exploding past teh 200 field in 68 ... These are the things you hear people talking about at meets ... Or bringing up on message boards ... Yeah times come up to ... But it is the competition ... The winning that truly defines greatness and champions ... You have to win something to be a champion ... Tim doesn't win in Paris he is just another sprinter who happens to hold the WR ... Mo wins his legend is extended ... Someone else wins and they are the new Champion and hope for the future ... And the time will be secondary ... Even if a new record is set ... It will be an addendum ot the title of World Champion ..
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Kishan Gill
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 27, 2003 8:51 am    Post subject: us champs Reply with quote

Hey fellas, you misread me, i'm enjoying the discusion, i just felt the initial reply was a little strong, after all it is just a sport. I think your views are very enlightening and engaging in this discussion has been quite stimulating as it is hard to find someone who is interested in track (in the u.k its all football, rugby or cricket ) and you probably have the same problem in the us with baseball, basketball etc. Thanks to the internet we can share our views sitting thousands of miles away.

Maybe my argument was flawed. I started this by saying the us champs were a liitle mediocre, had i known the track was not conducive to fast times i probably would not have made that comment.

The absence of the charismatic stars as dan described may have led to my impression of the meet. Just like boxing without ali and sugar-ray, it is sometimes hard to accept a us champs without names like lewis, mj and moses. I guess i am just a little bias , but i,m sure you will admit those runners were a joy to watch.

Every era can have a slump just as britian is still having one in middle-distance for over a decade since the days of coe, ovett and cram. Their are no athletes to fill their shoes almost fifteen years on.

The jamaicans were a dominant force over 400m in the fifties but other than bert cameron in the eighties , jamaica has been unable to reproduce that talent.

American sprinting is not suffering from a slump, but because their are quite a handful of good sprinters from outside america , they do not seem as dominant as they normally are, with the exception of greene of course.
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Dan
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 27, 2003 8:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Now we're in agreement. Smile

Dan
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 27, 2003 9:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree, but .... Shifting the conversation ... Maybe we are in a slump ... Or heading there ... Greene is on the downside ... Not sure how long that will take but will be sooner than later ... 2 more seasons maybe ... Tim is an imposter .. Good competitor ... But not a dominant force ... After that we really don't have anyone separate from the rest coming up elsewhere ... We have a bevey of good sprinters ... But guys who can be beaten on a good day by "outsiders" from other countries ... Gatlin is a possibility ... But yet to be seen outdoors ... Who else is in that mode ?? So far no one ...
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