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World Class sprinters in football
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Conway
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PostPosted: Mon May 05, 2003 8:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There are three footballers that I feel if they had given up the sport and given track and field justice they may have been as good at track - O.J. Simpson, Tony Dorsett and Eric Dickerson ... And it is because of the fluidity and effortlessness of their running ... Simpson and Dickerson both ran 9.4h for 100 yards ... Dickerson in high school !!! Dickerson also ran 9.3 in college but I believe it may have been wind aided ... Simpson ran on USC's famous 38.6 WR relay ... Dorsett was rumored to have run a 9.5, but had such explosion that he had to be able to run faster ... HE actually ran a 9.39 on the "Superstars" competition, but I would not count that for anything other than to say he blew the field away ...
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Paul
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PostPosted: Mon May 05, 2003 8:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was actually at Provo for the 1967 NCAA's. I believe OJ was 6th there. It was really something to see USC relay blow the field away in a national meet by 50y. Blew the WR away, also, but couldn't be counted because of Miller.
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Justin
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PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2003 7:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It was at the 1967 NCAAs in Provo that Charlie Greene ran 9.21 and 9.23 for 100y, the fastest ever times. Lennox Miller was 2nd in 9.32. 9.21 is worth very close to 10.00 for 100m (100y is 91.44m so a rough conversion is to add 0.8 to 100y times) just 3 yrs after Hayes ran 10.06 and a year before Hines ran 10.03/9.95A.

In 1994 (when at his peak) Linford Christie ran 9.30 for 100y at a special race in Edinburgh, the fastest ever time at sea level. Greene, running 27yrs earlier (albeit at altitude) would have been a yard ahead.

Greene always makes me think of Calvin Smith - different characters, but had in common being all-time greats unlucky enough to be overshadowed by true giants of sprinting (Hines, Lewis). Same for Ralph Metcalfe (Owens). Ato Boldon (Greene).

Only Reggie Jones (9.18w at '74 NCAAs) and Steve Williams (2 x 9.19w also at '74 NCAAs) ever bettered Greene's 9.21. (The 1974 NCAAs was the best ever for 100y auto-times, albeit all wind-assisted).

Justin

PS Thanks for your kind words Paul.
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Dan
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PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2003 8:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Paul speaks for all of us. Smile

Those '67 marks were auto timed? I thought that didn't come into play until '68? Confused

Dan
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Paul
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PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2003 1:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Smile You're more than welcome, Justin! Smile Thank YOU

An interesting sidelight on Greene, Hines, Miller. Greene was #1 ranked in 1966. By 1967 Hines was clearly taking over. Greene was slipping fast. By 1968, Miller edged him for 2nd at the Olympics.

The interesting thing is that Hines, known primarily as a 100m man, was actually ranked #2 world wide by T&FN in the 200m behind Smith and ahead of Carlos in 1966 & 1967. He was ranked 6th in 1968, but by then was concentrating exclusively on the 100m. Or so I am assuming. He had a best of 20.3h. This gives more credence to everyone here who believes a strong 200m can positively influence their 100m racing.

I would be interested in Justin's take on Greene through 67-68. Maybe he just plateaued (sp?) and others caught up with him.
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Dan
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PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2003 1:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
This gives more credence to everyone here who believes a strong 200m can positively influence their 100m racing.

It really is a tough notion to argue with. Everyone decelerates in the 100m, so those with superior speed endurance are likely to maintain better and gain an edge.

Dan
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Conway
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PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2003 8:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not so sure Green (no "e") hit his peak as much as Hines was just a superior athlete ... Hines was a high school prodigy here in California ... State champion and one time state record holder in both sprints ... Green was no dog in his own right, but Hines was tough from day one ... I think Green's early dominance was due to Hine's laziness (purported) ... The sprints were loaded back than and I don't think Hines took it seriously until the Olympics began to roll around ...

Personally I was always a big fan of Green's ... Partly because of his "re-entry peepers" ... The name he gave to his sunglasses which he wore religiously ...

A note on auto timed 100 yard races ... The back up timer on Houston McTear's 9.0h race was 9.30 giving him the =3rd fastest ever auto timed 100 and giving credence to his 9.0 (at least as far as Houston being one of the best ever over the distance) ...

It's unfortunate that the 100 yd stopped being run around 77/78 as with auto timing we began to see "real" times for the event .... Note that some major races have caught the "en route" 100 yd times which gives us:

9.12 - Carl Lewis in Tokyo
9.13 - Linford Christie in Stuttgart
9.14 - Leroy Burrell in Tokyo
9.15 - Dennis Mitchell in Tokyo
9.16 - Andre Cason in Stuttgart
9.19 - Ray Stewart in Tokyo
9.20 - Frank Fredericks in Tokyo

Too bad we don't have times for Mo's fastest series of times ... Or Ben Johnson ... Or the Atlanta Olympics ... Well, you get my point .. The 100 (yds) was a fantastic race ... Too bad it can't be brought back ... I had the fun of running the 100 yd race as a kid and in college ... As well as the 100 meters ... Matter of fact I grew up mostly running yards races ... And while you really can't "feel" the diference in the race there is something about hearing a time starting with "9" when you get the results !!!
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PostPosted: Wed May 07, 2003 2:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It is definitely Charlie Greene, with the last e.

Yes, the '67 NCAAs were auto-timed. This was not uncommon at majot meets from the 1950s onwards. Many US races uring the 70s used auto timing as an emergency backup - there was a policy of destrroying these films afterwards because people didn't like the new technology.

A 100y auto all-time list:

9.21 Charlie Greene '67 (also 9.23)
9.30 Linford Christie '94
9.32 Lennox Miller '67 (also 9.34)
9.33 Clifford Outlin '75
9.33 Johnny Jones '77
9.33 Jon Drummond '94
9.34 Reggis Jones '74
9.35 Bob Hayes '62
9.35 Bill Collins '74
9.35 Haseley Crawford '75
9.36 Frank Budd '61
9.36 Andre Cason '94
9.36 Sam Jefferson '94

9.18w Reggie Jones '74
9.19w Steve Williams '74 (also 9.19w & 9.20w)
9.20w Delano Meriwether '71
9.23w Jim Green '71
9.24w Don Quarrie '71
9.26w Steve Williams II '74
9.29w Outlin '74
9.30w Christer Garpenborg '74

Some names to stir nostalgic thoughts there...Meriwether, Budd, Hayes, Reggie Jones, Clifford Outlin...

Greene's 9.21y in '67 is worth 10.00-10.02 for 100m. He ran 10.02A in Mexico City so I think he maintained the same high standard - it's just that Hines improved. Plus Greene ran a poor race in the OG final - 3rd in 10.07 behind Miller (10.04) was probably a disappointment. I always thought he should have done a Larry James (43.97 behind Lee Evans) and run 9.99. It would have been a fitting climax to a great career - Greene was one of the all-time greats.

The 9.30 on McTear's 9.0h was, I always believed, semi-automatic ie started by hand but finished by a photo. This is even less accurate than hand timing. Still, McTear was outstanding, especially as he was only 18 when he ran that 9.0h.

Greene passed 90m in around 8.90 in his very best races. Add 0.14 for the extra 1.44m and we get a time of 9.04. So sub 9.10 is possible.

Still, no-one ever ran a legal 100y race faster than Charlie Greene did...

Justin
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PostPosted: Wed May 07, 2003 2:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry, I have no idea why it posted twice or why the system didn't realise it was me posting.

Justin
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Justin
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PostPosted: Wed May 07, 2003 2:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

As this has become the 100m nostalgia thread, a slightly devious trivia question:

Who ran the first ever 9.9 (wind legal, hand timed) 100m?

Note: It wasn't Jim Hines, Charlie Greene or Ronnie-Ray Smith. Indeed, it wasn't even done before the 70s.

Justin
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Conway
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PostPosted: Wed May 07, 2003 4:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Then that would have to be Eddie Hart and Rey Robinson at the 72 Trials in Eugene ... Sad thing about that is that they missed their quarter final races and never lined up against Borzov for the final ... Hart did run a brilliant anchor on the 4x1 getting gold ... But Robinson was NOT on the relay and so missed his chances altogether ... Larry Black a 200 man (silver medallist at the games) ran leadoff due to his superb turn running ability ...

Am I close ??? Rolling Eyes
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Justin
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PostPosted: Wed May 07, 2003 9:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, absolutely right. The first 9.9 WRs were run by Jim Hines, Ronnie-Ray Smith and Charlie Greene at the US champs in '68 but the auto-times were 10.03, 10.14 and 10.10. Hines' '68 OG time was initially ratified as 9.9 (just as Bob Hayes' 10.06 had been ratified as a WR equalling 10.0) but was of course 9.95. The first 10.0 WR (Armin Hary in '60) was also auto-timed, in 10.25. Enrique Figerola equalled that coming second to Bob Hayes and was given 10.2 as his official result!

That 10.03 by Hines is a great forgotten performance. No-one ran faster at sea level until...well, you tell me - Conway?

The first hand timed 9.9s without any auto timing was indeed at the '72 OT. I was just reading about Borzov and was reminded that he also almost missed the qf. He was snoozing in the stadium rather than back at the village and happened to glance up to see his race being called. Even then he almost didn't make it because an officious German security guard wouldn't let him past - Borzov either manhandled the guard out of the way or called over a passing shot putter to do it, depending on who you hear the story from. But, like Robert Taylor (10.16), Borzov ran a lifetime best (10.07) with no warm up, just the adrenaline of almost missing the race.

Ironically, had Borzov missed the race too I suspect that the qfs would have been re-run, then we would have had the proper match-up. I still think Borzov would have won, btw, but he would have had to go faster, perhaps into the low 10.0x range. And if only he had run through the line in the 200m - 19.95 would have been so much more special than 20.00.

Tommie Smith was another who tried and failed to follow Hayes into US football. There you go...back on to topic.

Justin
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X King
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PostPosted: Wed May 07, 2003 10:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Conway wrote:
Too bad we don't have times for Mo's fastest series of times ... Or Ben Johnson ... Or the Atlanta Olympics ... Well, you get my point ..


That sounds like a cry for help to me!!!! Very Happy I'm only joking.
But I might start looking at my Videos again freshly and see if I can get some 100yd times from the points in the track.
I'm on it..
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Conway
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PostPosted: Wed May 07, 2003 10:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Justin wrote:
That 10.03 by Hines is a great forgotten performance. No-one ran faster at sea level until...well, you tell me - Conway?
Justin


That would be 10.02 by James Sanford in 1980 at the Pepsi Invitational at UCLA ... Ironically I was at that meet !!! He beat Stanley Floyd and Silvio Leonard in that race if memory serves me correctly ...
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jeffh
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PostPosted: Wed May 07, 2003 6:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Speaking of world class sprinters in football...How about Frank Budd..
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