Run-Down Forums

[Distance_Guru]

Now for my own personal thinking I like one distance one pace workouts. Although from time to time I will do segmented workouts. Like 200 repeats followed by a 3 mile tempo. I also do most of those segmented workouts during cross country season since it has more volume, and the athletes are usually in a less conditioned state than later on. That allows me to work multiple system on one day gradually building each system without over stressing one that isn't prepared for it while still maintaining over all work load. As the year goes along and the athletes progress then I will begin to do less segmented workouts because the athletes are ready to devote entire workouts to one system or pace.
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[Paul]

thanks, coachd. 60 sec 200m is essentially my max 10K pace at this time, so that would make for quite an 1100m segment (600 + 200 + 300).
What is the Marquis de Sade workout?? (I'm almost afraid to ask!)

[Distance_Guru]

I never fail to get the numbers wrong but I think it goes 800@ 5k- 90 secs rest, 400@ sub 3k- 60 secs rest, 800@ sub 5k nonstop into 400@ mile. Repeat 4 times.

That's off the top of my head I'm sure Hammer or coachd will correct my errors. I think I ran the greatest workout of my life doing this one as a sophmore, I bet I barfed 5 times.
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Time is the fire in which we burn

[Paul]

I knew in the back of my mind I had seen that before. Owen Andersen's Peak Performance Online. Check this out.

[Distance_Guru]

That's one thing Hammer, coachd and I all have in common. A motto of ours is "I steal my best stuff" well probably more with Hammer and I than coachd. But we never rule out any source and will take advantage of a good bit of knowledge where ever we can.
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Time is the fire in which we burn

[Dan]

Are you talking about 3k/5k/10k type distances or 800/1500, also? With the longer track races, I'm in agreement with even pacing. But with 2-4 lappers, I think energy management dictates advantages over uneven pacing (faster opening and a kick) that simply cannot be recovered no matter how conservative and even the pace is otherwise.

Dan
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[Paul]

Actually that's a good thing. Some of my best weightlifting programs are ideas I got from other people, quantified them, and they turned out better than the original. Many times just seeing something in a different light gives you an idea for a workout. There's some great stuff out there and only a fool would not make use of them.

[Distance_Guru]

I'm talking 1500* and up. In an 800 race I usually try to set it up so that the 400 splits are run at around what Vigil recommends of 94% of 400 pace for the first lap and 89% of 400 pace for the second.

*When I say 1500 I'm talking about runners who are training to go 1500/3000. These athletes are much better equipped to treat this race like a short "distance" race. In other words run even pace and try to push the last half. 800/1500 runners usually tend to take the race out harder and run less even races. The 1500 is really a race that is best run according to the athletes tendencies, if your a distance runner you run steady and try to use your endurace to break the speedsters late. If your a shorter distance runner the you try to use your speed to shake your compotition early and hope they don't catch you late.
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Time is the fire in which we burn

[coachd]

DG is right (as is Paul)...there' plenty of good stuff out there to "steal"...the Marquis de Sade workout has evolved in our program and been fine tuned to different needs over time and teams, I know Hammer has adapted it to his high school runners with slight variations--but it is one tough workout that breeds confidence in runners who can "hammer" it...now the really bad news (for DG, at least)---I originally saw this workout in a RW article around 1992 (something like, "The Ten Toughest Workouts You'll Ever Do") were they got it I don't recall. I liked it, wrote it down in my "book" and waited for the right opportunity to apply it. When I came back to college coaching, the tream I had couldn't have handled it...but later I had guys like DG, Hammer, Chuck, Lee, etc. who were talented as well as tough--it was the perfect workout for them and I brought it out of mothballs so to speak.

Speaking of Owen Anderson (the website Paul referenced)...I used to get Running Research News and one time I aked (insisted? demanded?..no, requested) that Hammer go through all my back issuses and read and classify all the different training articles...great learning experience, right Hammer?

[Hammer]

[Dan]

Hammer, there's something to be said for that, but I believe overall consistency in intervals is more likely to lead toward speed development, which in turn leads to greater speed reserve and the ability to handle faster opening paces. Just my theory, though.

Dan
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[coachd]

Isn't it really two different things---speed development and the physiology of the race ?

Getting faster (speed development) does achieve some carry-over to say 800/1500 racing: You get more efficient and thus potentially use less energy in maintaining a particular pace, the pace itself "feels" easier,etc. But being faster in and of itself does not neccessarily translate to racing faster.

The body needs to be able to carry that improved speed over the course of a race situation and that is where I prefer to use combination type workouts...to more closely model what the athlete is expected to do in the race. I might have a guy wo can churn out all the 26/200's I ask him to do in a workout--because he's fast...but can he tack that speed onto the end of an 800 after going 27-29-30...to run say 1:55-1:56...or at least maintain his efficiency and "slow down less" than anyone else--ala Dave Wottle.

Then we can get into the whole idea of speed athletes versus strength athletes and tailoring the training to individual needs. So there is a lot of room for discussion, disagreement and differences in traing ideas.

[Hammer]

[Hammer]

[Dan]