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X King
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 31, 2003 11:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

pierrejean wrote:

Justin
Those Moscow distance races in 1980 both men and women are for me some of the greatest ever. Ovett/Coe battles and Kazankina/Olizarenko feats are among my favourites, even tough i'm more into sprints like you.
BTW, have you received my e-mail?


Not wanting to be nosey, but what did the e-mail that you sent to Justin contain PJ??? Or is it personal??? If it is I'll just shut-up about it... Very Happy
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X King
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 01, 2003 9:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

PJ,I was wondering have you ever taken 10m Splits for Indoor Sprints(50m,55m or 60m)??? I know you took Hurdle Splits of Colin Jackson's
7.40s winning performance in the 2002 Euro Indoors in Vienna.If you have,which races??? I would love to know so that we can discuss and compare the difference in Split Times.I have taken 10m Splits of Maurice Greene's 50m World Record equalling performance in New York '99,his 60m World Records in Madrid '98(6.39s) and in Atlanta '01(=6.39s) and also MO's 60m World Indoor Championships winning performance of 6.42s(CR) in '99.Oh and Splits of Tim Harden,Tim Montgomery and Mark Lewis-Francis in the 2001 World Indoors 60m Final.
What do you have.... Smile
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 02, 2003 3:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

As the subject is about 10m Splits.I have been working on this 'project' for weeks. And after serious searching through both my Video-Tapes and sourcesI have compiled a list of Best Ever 10m Segments of Donovan Bailey,Maurice Greene,Ben Johnson,Carl Lewis,Tim Montgomery,Linford Christie,Dwain Chambers,Obadele Thompson and Ato Boldon.
I have stole PJ's RT Limit of 0.100s Sorry!!!
So enough babbling on, here are my lists:

Donovan Bailey(CAN)
RT Limit:0.100s
0-10m:(Minus RT) 1.71s '97
10-20m:1.01s '96
20-30m:0.91s '97
30-40m:0.87s '97
40-50m:0.84s '96
50-60m:0.83s '96
60-70m:0.83s '96
70-80m:0.85s '96
80-90m:0.86s '96
90-100m:0.87s '96
Total:9.58s
Total+RT Limit:9.68s

Maurice Greene(USA)
RT Limit:0.100s
0-10m:1.70s '99 & '01
10-20m:1.00s '01
20-30m:0.89s '00
30-40m:0.86s '99
40-50m:0.84s '99
50-60m:0.82s '00
60-70m:0.83s '00 & '01
70-80m:0.83s '00
80-90m:0.85s '99
90-100m:0.85s '99
Total:9.47s
Total+RT Limit:9.57s

Ben Johnson(CAN)
RT Limit:0.100s
0-10m:1.70s '88
10-20m:1.02s '87
20-30m:0.93s '88
30-40m:0.86s '88
40-50m:0.84s '88
50-60m:0.83s '88
60-70m:0.84s '88
70-80m:0.85s '88
80-90m:0.86s '87
90-100m:0.86s '87
Total:9.59s
Total+RT Limit:9.69s

Carl Lewis(USA)
RT Limit:0.100s
0-10m:1.73s '87
10-20m:1.02s '87
20-30m:0.92s '91
30-40m:0.88s '87
40-50m:0.84s '91
50-60m:0.83s '88
60-70m:0.84s '91
70-80m:0.83s '91
80-90m:0.85s '87
90-100m:0.85s '84
Total:9.60s
Total+RT Limit:9.70s

Tim Montgomery(USA)
RT Limit:0.100s
0-10m:1.70s '01
10-20m:1.01s '02
20-30m:0.92s '02
30-40m:0.88s '02
40-50m:0.85s '01
50-60m:0.83s '02
60-70m:0.84s '01
70-80m:0.84s '01
80-90m:0.86s '01 & '02
90-100m:0.86s '01
Total:9.59s
Total+RT Limit:9.69s

Linford Christie(GBR)
RT Limit:0.100s
0-10m:1.72s '93
10-20m:1.03s '93
20-30m:0.95s '88 & '93
30-40m:0.88s '93
40-50m:0.85s '88
50-60m:0.84s '88
60-70m:0.84s '93
70-80m:0.86s '88 & '93
80-90m:0.86s '93
90-100m:0.86s '93
Total:9.69s
Total+RT Limit:9.79s

Dwain Chambrs(GBR)
RT Limit:0.100s
0-10m:1.71s '02
10-20m:1.01s '02
20-30m:0.92s '99 & '02
30-40m:0.89s '02
40-50m:0.86s '99 & '02
50-60m:0.84s '99 & '02
60-70m:0.85s '00 & '02
70-80m:0.86s '02
80-90m:0.87s '02
90-100m:0.88s '02
Total:9.69s
Total+RT Limit:9.79s

Obadele Thompson(BAR)
RT Limit:0.100s
0-10m:1.73s '98
10-20m:1.01s '98
20-30m:0.92s '98 & '99
30-40m:0.89s '00
40-50m:0.87s '99 & '00
50-60m:0.83s '00
60-70m:0.84s '98 & '00
70-80m:0.85s '98 & '00
80-90m:0.86s '98
90-100m:0.87s '98
Total:9.67s
Total+RT Limit:9.77s

Ato Boldon(TRI)
RT Limit:0.100s
0-10m:1.71s '96 & '99
10-20m:1.01s '98,'99,'00 & '01
20-30m:0.91s '98
30-40m:0.87s '96,'97,'98 & '01
40-50m:0.86s '01
50-60m:0.84s '96,'98 & '01
60-70m:0.84s '96 & '98
70-80m:0.84s '99
80-90m:0.87s '96 & '99
90m-100m:0.88s '96
Total:9.63s
Total+RT Limit:9.73s

So there you have it,my weeks worth of work,in which I have searched so deeply for. I wonder what PJ can cook up.... hmmm.... Wink
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Justin
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 02, 2003 7:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Since PJ's e-mail was sent to me and not posted on the forum, by definition it's personal, whatever it contains.

Very interesting splits X King, much to think about.

Justin
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Conway
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 02, 2003 7:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Very interesting splits X-King ... Seems like no matter what situation is used Greene comes out on top !!! Interesting that Chambers and Christie end up with the same "perfect race best" as well as their PRs being the same ...
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X King
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 02, 2003 9:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Justin wrote:
Since PJ's e-mail was sent to me and not posted on the forum, by definition it's personal, whatever it contains.


I forgot that it was a PM.Sorry!!!
The data is very interesting, and it gives me also something to think about. Funny how Linford's and Dwain's bests both add-up to the same,as do their PRs.Probably just a coniencidence!!!
I don't have enough data on Women.I could do a list of both Flo-Jo's and MoJo's Best Segments assembled.But apart from them,I don't have enough data. I wonder what PJ would make of those lists???
Where is he??? He seems to be very quiet lately.... Hmm... Confused
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Paul
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 02, 2003 10:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What I derive from this is that Johnson's best splits come from 2 races only. And if he hadn't shut down in Seoul, he may have had only one split from the World's in '87. He may have run his perfect race, regardless of the suspension. Greene's times are from 5 different races, I believe, so maybe he has yet to put together his best race. Lewis' splits span 7 years!

Johnson's splits, however, do point out how well prepared he was for those 2 races.

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X King
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 03, 2003 11:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well the Best 50m Splits that I find for Ben are:
1st 50m:5.50s Seoul OG '88(9.79s)
2nd 50m:4.27s Moscow GWG '86(9.95s)
TOTAL:9.77s
This time is only 0.02s from his 9.79s in Seoul OG '88.And considering he raised his finger to signal victory I believe that he could of run around the 9.75-9.77s range.But that is a 'could of' comment. Of course,how many times we estimate how much he lost,in thousandths, hudereths or even tenths.We will never know what he would of done if he had continued to 'keep the flow' in Seoul '88. We can oly guess.
As I was saying a couple of e-mails ago about Indoor Splits. I have since been wondering,what could Ben of run if he had his Seoul 'form' Indoors in '88??? 5.54s 50m... 6.36s 60m... This is only if you take into consideration my estimation of Indoor from Outdoor Splits( 0.03-0.12s)
I shall post my metioned Indoor Splits.Of MO Greene,Tim Harden,Tim Montgomery and Mark Lewis-Francis.Enjoy!!!

From 36Hz Video
Maurice Greene(USA)
6.39s WR
Madrid GP 1998
10m:1.87s (0.00s)
20m:2.88s (1.01s)
30m:3.81s (0.93s)
40m:4.71s (0.90s)
50m:5.55s (0.84s)
60m:6.39s (0.84s)
30m Splits:
3.81s/2.58s =6.39s(WR)
55m Split:5.98s
Last 5m Splits:0.43s/0.41s

From 49Hz Video
6.39s(=WR)
Atlanta USA Indoor Ch. 2001
10m:1.84s (0.00s)
20m:2.87s (1.03s)
30m:3.81s (0.94s)
40m:4.68s (0.87s)
50m:5.53s (0.85s)
60m:6.39s (0.86s)
30m Splits:
3.81s/2.58s =6.39s(=WR)
55m Split:5.99s
Last 5m Splits:0.46s/0.40s

From 29Hz Video
6.42s(CR)
Maesbashi World Indoor Championships(WIC)
Note:The 50m Split of this race was taken by IAAF Splits Research
10m:1.87s (0.00s)
20m:2.89s (1.02s)
30m:3.80s (0.91s)
40m:4.70s (0.90s)
50m:5.59s (0.89s)
60m:6.42s (0.83s)
30m Splits:
3.80s/2.62s =6.42s(CR)
55m Split:5.96s
Last 5m Splits:0.37s/0.46s

From 19Hz Video(Quite Low due to blurry vision.So the Splits may be a bit off!!)
5.56s(WR)
Los Angeles Invitational(L.A. Invit.)
10m:1.86s (0.00s)
20m:2.88s (1.02s)
30m:3.82s (0.94s)
40m:4.70s (0.88s)
50m:5.56s (0.86s)
Last 5m Splits:0.47s/0.39s

From 39Hz Video(The Splits are taken from Slow-Motion TV coverageRe-Play of the race,so they may seem a bit fast!! But that's no excuse for the Montgo Split!!!)
Tim Harden(USA)
Lisbon WIC 2001
10m:1.87s (0.00s)
20m:2.89s (1.02s)
30m:3.83s (0.94s)
40m:4.71s (0.88s)
50m:5.58s (0.87s)
60m:6.44s (0.86s)
55m Split:6.03s
Last 5m Splits:0.45s/0.41s

Tim Montgomery(USA)
Note:I totally disagree with the comment of his first 10m at this Champioships of 2.01s.Which is metioned in the Aussie report of Tim and Marion's move to Charlie Francis.I would love to know what source they found this time from,or what Hz the Video-Tape was that the Split was take from.Or how accurate the watch that took the Split is??? If this Split is true,this indicates a Last 50m Split of 4.45s!!!I know that Montgo's acceleration is Rapid ,but this is too fast even for him!!
The fastest 10-60m Split in either a 50m,55m,60m or 100m race or any other Short Sprint race that I have found or taken from my tapes is a 4.49s from Greene in the DNG in Stockholm in 1999(9.87s MR),I have also found a 4.46s from Greene in his Edmonton WCh '01 Quarter Final 2(1.83s-6.29s!!),but due to malfunction of the wind guage this cannot count as the Fastest 10-60m time en-route to a race. The fastest I have found for Montgomery is a 4.52s from Montgomery in Oslo '01(9.84s MR) and also during his WR 9.78s in Paris!!!
This is 0.07s different from his outdoor best!!! Hmmm... Enough going on about it lets see the Split!!:
10m:1.88s (0.00s)
20m:2.89s (1.01s)
30m:3.84s (0.94s)
40m:4.73s (0.89s)
50m:5.60s (0.87s)
60m:6.46s (0.86s)
55m Split:6.06s
Last 5m Splits:0.46s/0.40s

Mark Lewis-Francis(GBR)
10m:1.91s (0.00s)
20m:2.94s (1.03s)
30m:3.87s (0.93s)
40m:4.77s (0.90s)
50m:5.65s (0.89s)
60m:6.51s (0.86s)
55m Split:6.08s
Last 5m Splits:0.43s/0.43s( Woohoo a 'double'!!!)
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pierrejean
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 04, 2003 1:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

X King, i'm quiet because i'm busy! Smile
I'm afraid i can't play with you with those compillations of 10m split times, as i have no time to search them all in my stuffs or my tapes, and above all i'm not sure about the use of it.
Adding 20m split times would be fair, because 10m splits with 0.01 accuracy aren't that reliable.
For example if you take splits as 5.610 for 50m and 6.450, the 10m section is 0.840, but if an other athlete does 5.602 and 6.450, the split is 0.848, but rounded-up to 0.84, as 5.602 is corrected at 5.61. So i'm not sure we can add such unreliable data. Taking 20m splits would delete a little those inaccuracy (even though i think 0.01 accuracy is enough to search 10m splits, as it is worth 10cm, which represents the torso/shoulder twist during sprinting).

Where do those 36Hz, 49, 29Hz tapes come from? i don't understand. Also, this 19Hz tape (!?) for LA inv looks strange to me, that's around 0.052 between each frame, and honesty would prevent to give 0.01 split times from such a videotape.

About Maebashi'99 World Indoor Championships, you give 50m split time 5.59 for Greene's 6.42 60m win, taken by IAAF split Research. I've never heard about split time searches in Maebashi, but Greene's best time at 50m indoor in 1999 is his official split time 5.59 in Madrid en route to his 6.49. I think you did a confusion between those 2 races.

About Ben Johnson in GWG'86, time/stride analysis was made for this race by USSR scientists, i found this in a Spanich book (traduction from Russian) "La Carrera Atlética" (Zaporozhanov, Sirenko, Yushko). They give:

030m 3.86
060m 6.47
100m 9.95

From this we can estimate that even if he had a 0.83 50m-60m section, his last 50m would be 4.31 (instead of your 4.27), which gives a different point of view for that race.
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X King
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 06, 2003 8:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

pierrejean wrote:
X King, i'm quiet because i'm busy! Smile


I have also been busy.But not the 'adult busy',the 'kid busy'.I have had several Homework essays and projects which take up much of my time.But I am able to keep a high standard of work at the same time.

I now agree about the 20m Splits,instead of the 10m Splits which provide 0.01s inaccuracy.The 20m Splits shall be more of a challenge for me as it means even deeper searches into my work. I am up for it,and shall see what I can get a.s.a.p.


The tapes of the Indoor races come from either Internet Videos or TV coverage.
The Madrid,Maebashi and Atlanta Splits come from TV coverage in which I recorded on my VCR. However the LA inv Splits come from an internet video,which gives great inaccuracy.That's why the Splits may seem 'unreal'!!!

I don't get it.On the IAAF webpage it shows the 1999 Men's Indoor 50m lists.The 2nd top mark is 5.59+ by one Maurice Greene(USA) achieved in Maebashi during his 6.42s(CR). This gives a last 10m Split of 0.83s.Which is very fast Indoors! I shall check the IAAF webpage under 'Lists',and see if my eye decieved me once again! I hope my confusion has not mislead once more to inaccurate data.Thankyou PJ


Thankyou also for those Splits of Ben in GWG '86. They are quite useful.Thankyou
I have a question to PJ,or anyone who has ever taken Split times of Ben Johnson.What Best 'Half and Half' Split Times have you ever found for Ben Johnson???
Thankyou Smile
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Last edited by X King on Sun Mar 09, 2003 5:16 am; edited 1 time in total
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pierrejean
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 06, 2003 9:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

re-Greene at 60m in Maebashi, IAAF webpage doesn't give any 50m splits for Maebashi. The 5.59 is listed for Greene en-route to his 6.49 win in Madrid (Madrid and Liévin use to give 50m splits nearly every year, Mardid didn't have split time system during Greene's WR 6.39 in 1998 though).

re-Ben Johnson fastest 50m splits: it was in Seoul in his 9.79 race: 5.50 + 4.29. I doubt he went faster in any other race.
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 06, 2003 10:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

T&FN...this month's letter section has a question about football (American football) 40 yard dash times and the "accuracy" of such times--in America we always here "so-an-so ran a 4.3, 40 yard dash he has world class speed". Of course we all know these are hand timed, no false start, anticipating the finish times...but---The response from the magazine says they haven't seen any incremental splits for Montgomery's world record to compare times with (they do talk about Ben Johnson's splits)...just wondering if any of our sprint experts here need to help out T&FN.
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Dan
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 06, 2003 10:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've tried luring T&FN to this forum...

Dan
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 06, 2003 9:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Have they ever "lurked" around to your knowledge ???
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Dan
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 06, 2003 10:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not that I know of. I don't care to track that sort of stuff, even if I could.

I still need to follow up on that "BIG site" idea -- you know the one -- T&FN is the only one I approached about it...

Dan
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