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Hammer · Posted: Fri Jul 05, 2002 5:42 am Post subject:

In discussing the agrument between speed oriented and mileage oriented training, I have one Question: Didn't we already cover this in another thread? And didn't we somewhat agree that there is a need for a mix of the two philosophies?

I think we also have some misunderstandings: High Mileage programs still do access speed oriented training (MAX Vo2, LT, Lactic Acid Tolerance and basic speed) I THINK that mileage oriented training does a better job of preparing a more complete runner because the runner is more aerobicly fit.

I think that the US is laging behind in the Distance Community because of outdated approaches. I think it has more to do with the level of distance athletes in the US. With that in mind I bring up the fact that Vigil raised Drossin's MAX Vo2 10pts in three years by increasing her mileage. (Drossin was comming from a program that was lower in mileage and PROBABLY speed oriented) Imagine what Vigil could do with elite runners.

Dan · Posted: Fri Jul 05, 2002 8:17 am Post subject:

These topics tend to meld from one to another... Smile

Does anyone know details of Arkansas' training system (regarding Drossin)?

Dan

Distance_Guru · Posted: Fri Jul 05, 2002 8:25 am Post subject:

I don't know the details just the numbers at Arkansas she was running 65-70 miles per week. With Vigil she increased to 90-100 a week. And the results speak for themselves.
_________________
Time is the fire in which we burn

Conway · Posted: Fri Jul 05, 2002 8:27 am Post subject:

So much of the conversatoins we have had on distance running (and other threads I have read here) invariably always come back to MAX Vo2 as the end all, be all, let it be written let it be done, of the conversation ... In my years I have basically seen this only in context with American distance runners (unless an American is attempting to explain a foreign runner) ..

Question: Do WE (Americans) rely too much on this singular variable ??? It doesn't seem to be of great concern to anyone else ... And the rest of the world is handing us our lunch in these events !!! Might we be searching in the worng location for the Holy Grail ????

Distance_Guru · Posted: Fri Jul 05, 2002 8:56 am Post subject:

I think that you just might have a point. Although from my experience the people that are the biggest into the VO2max are scientists and the runners themselves (more for bragging purposes than anything else). Every coach worth his stopwatch knows that VO2 max is no more important than the athletes lactate threshold level and his biomechanical efficiency. If you are very efficient then you can easily out run someone with a higher VO2max with bad running efficiency. The same goes for Lactate threshold if it's higher than another runners you will probably beat them. Terms like VO2 max training and Lactate threshold training are scientific names for different types of training. For example I'm not real sure how much VO2 max training increases you VO2 max. I do know that pretty much every type of training out there does improve your VO2 max. Instead VO2 max training is more about getting your body used to running at the pace where your body is using oxygen at it's fastest sustainable rate.

VO2 max is a descent guide line for determining how good a runner can be but it isn't the be all end all that some people would make it out to be. If your VO2 max is below 50 you probably don't have a prayer of being an elite distance runner. On the other hand once you get above 60-65 you've got a shot but there are so many other factors that it's still nearly impossible to say. In other words VO2 max can tell you what you can't do but not necessarily what you can or will do.
_________________
Time is the fire in which we burn

Paul · Posted: Fri Jul 05, 2002 9:28 am Post subject:

DG: Good discussion on LT training vs Max VO2. It would seem apparent that LT training would be much more sustainable on a daily basis as far as duration (did I make any sense with that Confused

), but from my understanding, one of the bonuses of Max VO2 training is running efficiency.

Paul

Distance_Guru · Posted: Fri Jul 05, 2002 9:51 am Post subject:

You are correct. Running at any pace will increase your efficiency at that pace, which is very important to 3k and 5k runners since VO2 max pace is very close to there race pace. Also on a side note many people believe that a way to increase your lactate threshold is by doing runs of over an hour. So instead of just doing the traditional tempo's and fartleks which make up the primary methods of LT training you can also sort of sneak it in throught the side door by using long runs. The theory goes that even when your body is functioning aerobicly your body is also still using anaerobic pathways to get energy as well. And that some time around the 60 minute mark the cumulative biproducts of using these anaerobic energy pathways add up to raise the bodys lactate level up to near the threshold point. Now to me this seems possible, although it seems more likely to be lactate tolerance rather than lactate threshold but hey I don't write the theories.
_________________
Time is the fire in which we burn

Hammer · Posted: Fri Jul 12, 2002 12:54 pm Post subject:

With many elite runners having good-excellent biomechanics a MAX Vo2 score can be an excellent way of marking improvement and comparing runners.

To ad to DG's comments I have seen many runners improve without MAX Vo2 specific training (at least not a lot of it). But I tend to believe that runners improve when they train all of the sytems in a systematic program throughout the year.

Distance_Guru · Posted: Sat Jul 13, 2002 9:13 am Post subject:

Conway · Posted: Sat Jul 13, 2002 10:20 pm Post subject:

Real question ... Are there any tests to detect pain threshhold ???
and if so who has it been administered to ???

Aside from the aid that Steroid et al gives on interms of being able to handle a greater training load ... It would seem to me that an immense key is an indivivduals abilitiy to withstand pain ... Both in training and in competition ... Would almost be the embodiment of "heart" ...

Dan · Posted: Sat Jul 13, 2002 10:39 pm Post subject:

The tricky thing is that, as described surprisingly well by Donald Sutherland (as Bowerman) in Without Limits, a person's genetic makeup largely determines their ability to withstand pain. Thus, we get a very blurred distinction between talent and heart.

Dan

Conway · Posted: Sun Jul 14, 2002 10:12 am Post subject:

I agree that geneticmakeup determines one's ability to withstand pain ... But are there any tests that can detect what that threshold actually is ??? Could well help in placing athletes in events AND assist in preparing training programs for them !!!!!

Dan · Posted: Sun Jul 14, 2002 10:14 am Post subject:

Doubtful. None that I've heard of, at least. I agree it would be an incredibly useful test, but I can't think how it would be doable. What would you measure and how? Even if two people have the same number of nerve receptors (?), do they still transmit the same sensory data, i.e. pain and fatigue?

Dan

Conway · Posted: Sun Jul 14, 2002 10:39 am Post subject:

Did you ever read the book or see the movie DUNE ??? If so in the beginning there is this test that is administered to the young boy to detect how well he can handle pain ..

Now while that is science fiction, that is the kind of thing I am thinking about ... A way to measure when an indiviudal is at his/her threshold ...

Dan · Posted: Sun Jul 14, 2002 10:59 am Post subject:

It's been so long since I watched the movie that I don't recall the scene you're talking about (another snoozer of a movie, in my opinion)... I understand what you're talking about, I just don't see that there's any specific thing that could be tested for pain threshold levels. Is it a nerve thing, a brain thing, a lung thing, some combination, etc.?

Dan

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