Run-Down Forums

Conway · Posted: Sat Jul 20, 2002 10:30 am Post subject:

Let's see ... Your observations ...

Like I said, ElG recognizes his need to learn how to race, as well as run fast ... The pace was fasat and the tactics were near perfect ... If he had waited another 50 meters I think Lagat wins ... The look on Lagats face said "wait, I was gonna do that to you in just a second!!!" ... ElG beat him to the punch basically ... Someone had posted earlier that it was a good thing that Krummenaker set his PR in the race earlier in the week ... I think had Krummenaker been in the race he would have had a chance to go sub 3:30 ... He can not outrun the first two, but the way he has been running he would have been in position to hold on for a low 3:30 to high 3:29 as he would have been near the front the entire time !!!

Krummenaker does look a bit lighter .. I had noticed that too ... I think that has aided his improvement .. He seems to be runnign lighter this year ... (as in on his feet)

Told you Anier is a big sprinter / hurdler Wink

... Yeah Wade won ... But Wade is a fast hurdler and is gonn win his share ...

Sanchez has weird movements period ... If you notice he has the tuck of a big hurdler (arm movement across his body) as he goes over the hurdles ... I don't like that foot placement (nor do I like it on Ato) ... I think it is highly inefficient, BUT I think it is a natural movement that may not be removable (sort of like Lee Evans head swing and Mark Everrett's arm action) ...

I think REgina was anticipating the late run that came at her and instead of just trying to out run was looking for it to try to out time it !!!! Didn't work Crying or Very sad

... Amost though ...

Was talking with a good freind of mine last night about Dragila ... I think the event has caught up to her ...She's pretty much maxed her ability and is going to be faced with other athletes starting to finally catch on and beginning to move by her ... She was not a superior athlete by any means prior to getting into the pole vault (she prepped here in northern California) ... She happened to oget in the right event at the right time ... A new event without an established history ... Don't get me wrong she has been a leader and helped take it to this point ... But now some superior athletes are going ot take it to the next level ...

Like I said yesterday, Kipketer is still trying to get his fitness back from his bouts with Malaria ... It is an extemely tough disease on the body ... But 80% of Kipketer can win most races ever run !!!! This is his tune up year ... Next year I think we see him back to routine 1:42's and I think he will take a tab at going under 1:41 as he knows his time is limited ...

Marion is tapped out in my opinion ... She's done her best ... Her technique will never improve until she changes coaches and she refuses to do that ... So there you have it ... I predict P-Block beats her when they meet (P-Block just ran 10.83 to take back the yearly lead) ... Then we will see if that serves as enough incentive for Marion to change ...

Mo runs near flawlessly ... He is the smoothest mechanical sprinter since - Ben Johnson .. With this lull in competition over the next few weeks I look for MO to be invicible once the meets get going again ...

Men's 800 - gotta know how to race ... A lot of people in that race are supposedly better than Krummenaker ... But HE maximized his ability ... That simple ..

I will say that I now understand th reason for the high failure rate of our male distance runners (American) ... Simply put they don't run or race ... Too many mental obstacles .. Too much mental baggage ... I'm amazed that as many as do make it to the starting line ... Great props to Teter and Krummenaker for showing the mental toughness and heart of a sprinter !!!!!

Dan · Posted: Sat Jul 20, 2002 10:55 am Post subject:

Paul · Posted: Sat Jul 20, 2002 11:48 am Post subject:

Who is Marion's coach (Kersee?) and who do you think she should migrate to??
I'm also in agreement about Dragila and have felt that way since last year. She has had a great run, Olympics and WC, but with the event as young as it is, I see improvement from other quarters. Would she also profit from a coaching change?? One of the problems with US women's vaulting is that she is so respected (I was going to say revered), that it may be some time before she is seriously challenged for her stateside leadership role. If that ocurrs, we may find ourselves in the 2nd tier of the vaulting world.
I have never seen Sachez run, but something I always keep in mind when I think of the HH is that the distance between hurdles is finite. So the only road to improvement, outside of technique over the hurdles themselves, is leg turnover between hurdles. So Sanchez's foot problems might plague him in in open 100m, where he could gain stride length, but in the HH it might not be much of a factor. Notice the problems Devers encountered when she switched back and forth between events. Concentrating solely on the hurdles (I am assuming that is what she is doing) is not only making her a better, more consistent hurdler, but also prolonging her career.

Paul

Dan · Posted: Sat Jul 20, 2002 12:44 pm Post subject:

Marion is coached by Trevor Graham, who's claim to fame is coaching Marion Jones... Who should she switch to? I think Conway's answer would be, "anyone else!" Smile

I agree with your basic premise about lack of variables in the hurdles, but form plays a major role in turnover and foot speed, so that can't be ruled out any more than it can in an open sprint.

Dan

Paul · Posted: Sat Jul 20, 2002 1:20 pm Post subject:

I was thinking more in the lines of Francis' rule of not monkeying around with something unless it was a serious impediment to performance.

By the way, do you think Francis will ever coach again?? He didn't get a lifetime ban from the sport, from my understanding. Or is he so fed up with the whole system that he has washed his hands of it? Sad

Paul

Dan · Posted: Sat Jul 20, 2002 1:29 pm Post subject:

That's one thing Francis repeats regularly that I've never quite agreed with. The only way to really know if something was better off left alone is to try changing it and see what happens, and even then, you still don't know absolutely that that was the best change.

I think his real message is not to over-coach, which can be easy to do, as opposed to not making adjustments and trying new things. In other words, use your judgement. Otherwise, a coach wouldn't be much more than a person that gives workouts and times intervals, which I know isn't Francis' belief.

I doubt he'll coach again. He's banned from the sport for all intents and purposes. No athlete would risk running for him due to the guaranteed backlash, and agents and meet promoters would probably keep their distance for the same reason. I could see him being brought in as a consultant, however. He still does clinics and presentations from time to time, so I don't think he's really washed his hands of the sport.

Dan

Paul · Posted: Sat Jul 20, 2002 1:34 pm Post subject:

Thanks,
Paul

Conway · Posted: Sat Jul 20, 2002 3:57 pm Post subject:

Dan's right ... I think anyone would be better for Marion than Trevor !!! BUT .. IF she wants what she says she does (to break FloJos records) then the only chance sheh would have is to get in her car and drive to LA and beg John Smith to let her in !!!! Wink

.... I could do it but I don't think she would listen to me Very Happy

...

I don't think Chalied Francis has a snowballs chance of coaching again ... Much too tainted !!! Like Dan said, where would he go, what would he do, who could he negotiate with ????

As for tinkering with athletes, that's what practice si for in my opinon .... Try to see what works ... John Smith "rebuilt" Mo !!! And if you look at Ben Johnson in say 1984 and again in 1987 he was rebuilt too !!!! So FRancis can take that back !!!

Dan · Posted: Sat Jul 20, 2002 5:44 pm Post subject:

Paul · Posted: Sat Jul 20, 2002 6:30 pm Post subject:

Conway: I would argue with your statement that Ben Johnson was rebuilt from 1984 to 1988. Francis said inTraining fo Speed, pg 15 that Ben's stride length was fixed since 1982. The difference between then and 1988 was stride frequency which was due to strength work. By 1988 he was achieving just over 5 strides per sec (Training for Speed and Speed Trap,pg 245 at 40 meters...). So I would see his improvement as a natural progression, not a rebuild. Many novices (not in this forum, though, from what I've seen Smile

) miss the correlation between superior strength and relaxation. I think that Ben's strength training carried over tremendously to his ability to relax at top speed. Francis does not directly say this, but alludes to it in many places in both books.

Still interested in whether you think Dragila would benefit from a coaching change.

Paul

Dan · Posted: Sat Jul 20, 2002 6:55 pm Post subject:

I don't know anything about Dragilla's coaching situation, other than that she helps out at Idaho State. I sort of think she's done better than can be expected for herself, so coaching is not to blame for holding her back.

Dan

Paul · Posted: Sat Jul 20, 2002 8:26 pm Post subject:

Is Rick Sloan still in the Idaho area?? I lose track of where these coaches end up. He was (or still is) a great jumps coach. Wasn't he head coach at Univ of Id or Id St. ??

Paul

Conway · Posted: Sat Jul 20, 2002 9:30 pm Post subject:

Between '84 and '87 Ben got a new start, improved mid race lift, and greater (and stronger) turnover during the final 20 meters ... Now They may not have altered his stride pattern, but they sure did a whole lot to augment it !!! Now I will give them that the added stregnth played a big role ... But changing Ben's start put him into his running pattern faster than alyone else in history (Mo and Company use what is called "drive phase" and their goal is to delay getting into the actual sprinting rhythm) !!! Onced up Ben went immediately into his lift phase which was substantially earlier than in '84 (and prior) ... And again probably on he has ever been strong enough to begin lifting so soon and yet maintain it !!!

I wish I had the technology to run Mo and Ben's 9.79 side by side ... I am gussing that Mo closes at the end which is astounding to imagine !!! But anyway Ben's improvement had to do with more things that stride length ...

As for Dragila, I think she might be able to add a few more centimeters to her jump if she were with someone like Bell ... But that would not be enough to keep her at the top ... I don't think she is destined to be the first to 16' ... And I do beleive Sloan is still in the Idaho area somewhere ..

Dan · Posted: Sat Jul 20, 2002 10:03 pm Post subject:

I wasn't aware Ben's start changed (Francis does talk about him having that distinctive 2-foot pouncing action as an untrained skinny 14 year old), but the difference between his approach and the rest of the top sprinters with regards to get up to speed is very interesting. Francis doesn't really address if he thinks anyone else is capable of copying that pattern of getting into the sprint motion almost immediately, but he does point to it as a major reason why Ben could attain a higher top end speed and be decelerating late race from a higher point than anyone else, giving him an unsurmountable advantage in theory.

Paul · Posted: Sat Jul 20, 2002 10:36 pm Post subject:

Ben's start didn't go through any changes since the early 80's. He was worried about getting out faster because he felt he needed the extra space at the beginning because others would be coming up on him toward the end. So most of his problems were mental. About this time (1983) Don Quarrie took Ben under his wing. Francis calls Don one of the "genuinely selfless" individuals in Track and Field. Don simply told Ben not to worry about his start, it was already the best in the world. Francis said Ben never had another starting slump from that point on.

Paraphrased from Speed Trap p124-125.

Conway, you will love this book!!!!!! Very Happy

Paul

ps - trying to make this post count. Joined the Varsity with this one. Surprised

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