Run-Down Forums

[Dan]

Women's marathon. Last week, Takahashi smashes a supposedly very tough standard by bringing the event under 2:20. One week later, Ndereba lowers the WR another minute!

I always have a problem when I see this sort of thing. I get the impression that the athletes in most races that are working the hardest are rarely the ones in the front. It can be seen at almost any level of running... Go to any small meet and watch the top finishers immediately afterward, then compare their physical behavior to that of the rest of the finishers. Most likely, you will see the top athletes look to be almost immediately recovered, while the others seem to be losing the war with gravity.

Some people explain this as simply being due to the better athletes being in better shape, thus they recover more quickly. I don't buy it. More often than not, it appears they simply don't have to work as hard to finish where they do; more in reserve.

Why do I say this? Well, largely because of "breakthroughs" like in the women's marathon. (We saw similar mass improvements in the men's distance races from about '95 to '98.) Obviously, the human body did not suddenly adapt to a faster pace, and I very much doubt that Ndereba was able to dramatically alter her training in just one week to account for the new world record target! No, she simply set new goals. She's one of the top marathoners, but hardly the dominant force, which makes me think any of half a dozen women could have set the record...

Why do people do this? Is it seen as better to go for the safe win than to aim for maximum performance and risk crashing and burning? I don't think I could look at myself in the mirror if I ever took that attitude into a race...

I thought about titling this thread "professionalization of the sport," but as mentioned above, the attitude seems to be pervasive at all levels. I don't understand the whole concept of staying (hiding) in one's comfort zone, as that seems exactly the opposite of what participation in the sport is about...

Dan

[Conway]

Well I think I agree with you .. It is the difference between a Prefontaine and your average champion (if there is susch thing as an average champion) .. Lots of people run tyring not to lose as I call it .. Just enough to not get beaten .. AS opposed to trying to maximize their potential feeling that if they do so then the victory will be there .. I think Haile Gebresselasie is another with the "goal in mind" mentality .. And that is why he has been so successful and dominant ..

It is very diheartening to me when I watch a race at any level (high school on up) and the first few placers go trotting around the track as if they could race a couple of more laps .. Or you watch guys coming off the turn for the final 100 meters in full flight as if that is what they have been "waiting" the whole race to do ..

I believe we will see more sub 2:20s by other women within a short period of time .. Too bad I do not expect to see any sub 2:10s any time soon by American men .. And I think the heart of this topic is why !!!

[Dan]

[Micah Ward]

Interesting question...run for a safe win or run to maximize potential? I run for personal satisfaction so I will run to try to maximize my potential. But if I was running for a paycheck? I would run just fast enough to get that paycheck! It would not benefit the bank account to crash and burn in route to a PR. And yes, the elite on the world stage are running for a paycheck. It is their job and the more they can race the more they can earn. So the easiest effort that brings a win is what they want. The best way to get the WR attempts is to give bonuses for performance.

[Conway]

I hear what you are saying Micah .. But .. The PRefontaine philosophy (and mine to a degree) is that in running a PR or near PR you generally assure a win .. Unless your PR is not of the same quality as the ocmpetitors in the race in which case you are over matched anyway !!!

Take MO Greene for example .. His PR is 9.79 .. He routinely runs sub 10 .. His thinking is simple .. NO one else can do that at will .. Therefore as long as he does, he keeps winning .. And when someone else drops into his range his body is ready (and been trained to through competition) to turn it up a notch and still win anyway !!!

Gebressalsie would be my distance equivalent .. Carl Lewis a field event equal .. Real simple in order to beat them you had to do something special .. ElG on the other hand has lost out on 2 Oly golds by NOT running up to his potential ..

!!!

[Dan]

Wow, you guys are prolific tonight!

Two things:

1) As I mentioned previously, I think this issue extends far beyond professionalism, which clouds the issue of running for a paycheck.

2) I think Gebreselassie actually fits into the category of underachieving champions (as Carl certainly did), doing just enough to guarantee victory but to never do more work than necessary up to the end. I don't see his WR performances being much different than those of the past week in the women's marathon. Has Geb ever lowered his own world record? I can't think of any instances off hand, although I would guess it happened somewhere along the line... The point being that he never risked more than he had to, but he always had enough in reserve to have an answer when one of his records was "stolen."

Dan

[Conway]

Hmmm ... Interesting view of Geb ... I don't think he HAD ever broken his own record .. Lewis on the other hand I think was aways at his limit .. Is why he won so much ...Could always go there but no farther .. Too many close wins over the years .. And the long jump is not something one can just tape out and say that is where I am going to land .. But you do raise some very interesting points .. I know on the college and high school level I can think of tons of examples to substantiate your point ...

[Micah Ward]

I've never been a sprinter or jumper so I can't speak to the idea of going all out every competition in those events. But when it comes to distance....

Even with the legend of Pre's strategy of going all out from the start, most distance runners will agree that the best way to race is with a negative split. Run the second half of the race faster than the first. If you are running that strategy and you have a lead then I think you will only run fast enough to maintain that lead. On the other hand most distance world records tend to be set with a negative split.

[Micah Ward]

I'm not sure that last post made sense. I think what I was trying to say was that it may be easier to run all out in a sprint than a distance race because of the distances involved. Going at the "redline" effort for 10 or 20 seconds is different than holding that "redline" effort for 13 or 27 minutes or even 2 hours 5 minutes.

What I've probably done now is fire up a couple of sprinters.

[Dan]

[Conway]

I think we can compare max effort across disciplines simply by using yoru idea of red lining .. That being the max effort that one can maintain without breaking down .. In the case of a sprint it is reacing that peak and holding it as long as possible (although I do believe one can "kick" at the end of a sprint - but that is for a different discussion) .. In distance running it is holding of maximum pace ..

But like Dan I am appalled at the number of races I see each year (and I see plenty) where apparently no effort was given unless necessary .. And i consider most distnace runners to be fools when they line up for a race knowing who has the best kick and yet everyone "waits" for it to happen .. When I first started running the 4x4 in high school I did it off just sprint training .. And my coach gave me some simple advice .. YOU take it out and make them work to stay with you .. Then you BOTH die at the end and see who has the most heart .. Don't run their race and allow them to kick your ass off of THEIR pace .. And you know what ?? We sone a lot of 4x4s and I ened up with some very good splits ... (Puked a lot too).. But point being is I was taught NOT to wait for it to happen to me .. Make it happen to someone else first !!!!

Now maybe that is sprint doctrine .. But I see it as race doctrine .. And from my own experiences and from decades of watching others my observation has been that Winners make it happen ..

[Micah Ward]

Maybe what we are talking about here is courage (or the lack thereof). If everyone lines up knowing who has the best kick, and they wait on the kick to be unleashed, it could be they lack the courage to challenge the kicker. And that opens up an entirely new subject that I can get on a soapbox about.

We live in a culture where dodgeball is being eliminated in schools because some educators feel it teaches aggression. Nonsense! It is a simple game that stresses individual effort to overcome the efforts of others. Now don't get me wrong. The absence of dodgeball is not the root of all evil. I am simply pointing that out as an example of how competitiveness is being down played in some segments of society and people are not developing the courage to put everything on the line to achieve victory; or to even be willing to put in the preparation that allows you to put everything on the line.

[Dan]

I think you're both right (and saying pretty much the same thing). To sit back and wait for someone else to dictate the race is akin to admitting there can be only one winner and it isn't going to be you...

On the other hand, my most influential (on me) coach told me that the only reason to be leading after one lap in a 1500 is for your own head (ego or lack of confidence to run well late) as opposed to out of wise strategy. I never quite decided what I think about that one.

Dan

[Conway]

First question Dan is waht was the school record for the mile at your school ?? Will tell a lot about the coach .. I agree with the lack of aggression .. And that is a soap baox I can jump on .. But time for dinner and then I can come back ..

[Dan]

The coach in question was our coach of the club team at Oregon State. He was the distance coach there before the program was cut in '88, and he worked as a graduate assistant coach before that. He worked with Karl Van Calcar; primarily a steepler, but he ran a paced sub-4 mile in the last race on the OSU track. I'm not sure if he was a grad assistant when Hailu Ebba (major rival of Prefontaine and the national record holder in the mile for Ethiopia) was there, but they had several solid middle distance folks around that time. I think I have a school record list floating around somewhere...

Dan