Run-Down Forums

[Conway]

Most sporting conversations sooner or later get to the point of arguing who was the greatest .. In track and field there can be many greatest .. Greatest by event .. Greatest STarter or finisher .. Greatest kicker .. Greatest technique .. And so on .. Watching Allen Johnson in the Goodwill games made me watn to start this conversation as he may arguabley be the greatest high hurdler of all time ..

And that is saying a mouthful given those that have come through this event - Willie Davenport, Rod Milburn, Renaldo Nehemiah, Roger Kingdom, and Allen Johnson to name the most prominent that come to my mind .. If I were ranking say top 3 my ranking would look like ..

1. Allen Johnson - has done it all Olympic Gold, World Gold, World record, consistency of marks at high level .. And he's not through ..

2. Renaldo Nehemiah - in some ways he doesn't belong here because his career was so short as he chose to try to play football (major mistake) .. And becasue he really never won anything of note (Olympics or Worlds) .. But in his short time he changed the event .. He took the World Record from 13.21 to 12.93 !!! Setting a standard that 20 years later only 3 have equalled or beaten .. And the current record is only .02 better !!!

3. Rod Milburn - As dominant in his day as anyone .. His 1972 WR of 13.24 is still a high quality mark today nearly 30 years later .. And performing during the era where hand times and Auto timing were both being used he had several marks of 13.0/13.1 in major competitions (meaning the hand times were of the highest quality) ...


Anyone with a different top 3 ?? or perhaps a top 3 in a different event ??

[Dan]

I don't really have an opinion on this one, other than to say I have a hard time not including Colin Jackson in the list, although I don't know that anyone could be taken off to make room for him...

Ever notice how the "marketing" of Allen has changed over the years? His first couple seasons they intro'd every race with a fluff piece about he always finds something to get angry about for staying focused and what not. They really hyped up the nasty/angry aspect, complete with glares that would have made Bernard Williams grimmace in Sydney... Now, Allen is portrayed as the quiet, compassionate champion. No anger, nothing negative. Just a consumate professional.

Any other athletes come to mind that have undergone a similar image transformation? This is a question for everyone, not just Conway.

Dan

[Conway]

That's easy ... First one comes to mind is another hurdler - Greg Foster .. Initially it was Greg against Renaldo .. With Greg bieng the bad guy .. Renaldo was the shining star .. Greg was the volatile, hurdle breaking challenger that could never seem to catch him .. Then Renaldo went the way of the 49ers .. And Greg's mother died in a car accident (and a side note, he was FloJo's boyfriend and would be fiancee until the end of '87, when a year to go for the Olympics, she dumps him for Al Joyner, Jackie's brother and link to Bobbie Kersee, but back to the story at hand) .. Anyway following all of these things (Oh and Greg broke his arm prior to the 88 trials) ... Anyway after ALL of these things happened to him he too was portrayed as the very calm tranquil hurdler who was the seasoned veteran among all the up and comers ... Bet you never heard all that before !!!!!

[Dan]

No, I hadn't heard all that. Just bits and pieces. Is it something about hurdling that lends itself toward portrayals of intense rivalries (ironically, it's probably the event least in need of hyping up with high end competitions between the elites week in and week out) or pure coincidence?

Dan

[Conway]

I think the rivalries have been natural ones .. And as you say there is really no nreason to hype anything as hurdlers tend to race against each other more than any other group .. Even in this era of professionalism .. I can think of all sorts of "rivalries" for as long as i have been into the sport .. few years ago was Johnson and Crear .. Now is Johnson and Garcia .. Seems to be the nature of the beast ...

[Conway]

Speaking of rivalries .. The nature of sprinting (showdown at the OK Corral kind of thing)has created all sorts of rivalries over the years .. And controversy .. So on the note of controversy I will list my top 3 100 men of all time .. (sure to spark discussion !!!)

1. Maurice Greene - Fastest ever .. Most sub 10's by a landslide .. Dominates the all time list .. Dominant since 97 (5 years running - pun intended) .. World and Olympic golds .. Fierce competitor .. The complete package ..

2. Bob Hayes - Like Nehemiah too short a career but the dominant force of his day and brought the event into the modern era .. First legal sub 10.10 (10.05 Tokyo on dirt !!) .. First auto sub 10.00 (9.91w in Tokyo semi on dirt) .. Perhaps the most feared sprinter ever .. EVERYONE was ready to hand him the 64 gold before he even arrived in Japan !!! Bob was unbeatable ..

3. Ben Johnson - Transformed the event .. Took it to the next level .. Convinced everyone that to increase speed one had ot increase power .. Won both World and Olympic golds (yes they were taken away buthe won the races) .. Yes he tested positive .. Yes he was stripped of everything .. But unjustly became the poster boy for the anti drug movement .. Love him or hate him what he did was great ..

Yes I know I didn't put Carl LEwis in the top 3 .. Yes I know almost anyone else would have .. However .. Carl was only "dominant" for about 3 seasons in the early 80's when the event was in transition (including his 84 Olympic win) .. Post 84 he NEVER dominated again .. Ben was the man through 88 and his suspension .. Then it was Burrell 89 through 91 .. Then Christie 92, 93, 94 .. Bailey was top dog in 95 & 96 .. And Mo has ruled the roost ever since .. Carl made no Olympic squads post 88 .. And while he won 91 gold at Worlds in a WR he NEVER broke 10.00 again (isn't that strange ??) .. Carl was primarily reputation in this event after 1984 .. While he was part of possibly the greatest sprint rivalry of all time he was the secondary player not the primary ..
OK .. You can blast me now

[Dan]

No flaming here, I think that's a very well thought out list. I'd say those three are far and away the best three, but you could probably change the order repeatedly based on what your "greatest" criteria is. Most consistent, definitely Mo. Although, Hayes gets consistency points over a shorter duration... Biggest breakthrough would have to be Ben. Dominance would see to be a three-way tie. Ben was the most dominant when he was on, but he was on the least. Can dominance and consistency even be separated when we're talking about the best of all time? Tough call.

Dan

[Conway]

I would have to say that dominance and consistency would almost have to be linked together ... UNLESS you competed during a down period in a given event .. Then you could theoretically be inconsistent BUT good enough to beat your competition .. IN therory .. ..

Man thought I would get some flack or something on that one .. EVRYONE thinks Carl Lewis is the top 100 man ever .. Or maybe they don't ... Hmm .. Let's try this one then .. How about the women's 100 ??

1. Evelyn Ashford - Twice WR setter and first under 10.80 (10.79a & 10.76 .. Gold in 84 and silver in 88 behind the biggest question mark ever in the sport .. Dominant over the eastern block when EVERYONE knew they were drugged .. Burst on the scene in 1979 and was still a major world force in 1992 ...

2. Gail Devers - No WR's .. Just Olympic golds !!! Won the biggie and then won the biggie again .. And like Ashford has lasted through several different incarnations of stars .. While she never set a record (THAT may NEVER happen again) she has been very consistent running consistently under 11.00 during most of her career and near 10.80 when it has mattered most ..

3. Merlene Ottey - Almost put Renate Stecher here, but no one has had a career to rival Merlene's .. Ottey at 40 is still a world player .. Consistenly under 11.00 during the majority of her career Devers is the only thinkg keeping her from the top spot .. She's run under 10.80 and she's won more medals in intrnational competition than anyone else in history ... She just hasn't been able to get the gold .. And so the bronze queen fittingly finishes in thta position here - 3rd ...

What ???!!! No FloJo you say !!! That's right .. One season - or more precisely two competitions does not a career make .. Yes she holds the WR ... Yes She won Olympic gold .. And I won't even raise the question of whether or not she was drugs .. Because that is irrelevent here ... She was an above average sprinter prior to 1988 .. Her final race before the Olympic trials was 10.89 in San Diego (answer to the last remaining unanswered question if I am not mistaken) .. And her last race ever was 10.91 in Tokyo (right after the Olympics) .. In between she had two competitions (Olympic Trials & Olympic games) that were the most phenominal in history .. But they were none the less only 2 competitions .. Nothing else she ever did in her career was any where near close .. And nothing else she did was more than slightly above average .. So she doesn't make the top 3 here .. And I'm not sure she would make my top 5 .. Maybe not 10 ..

[Dan]

I view Carl as being worthy of consideration for best track & field athlete ever, but not quite there when looking at just one of his several events of choice.

The women's 100 seems to be much tougher to call than the men's. It appears you valued consistency at a runner-up level to be of more importance than consistent winning or great marks (which needn't be separated for the top men). I would be inclined to move Marion and Gwen Torrence ahead of Devers and Ottey, although it seems that would make a very US heavy list... Devers is similar to Carl in that she's been brilliant when looking at her career on the whole, but she's played second fiddle to the dominant sprinter of the day too often.

Dan

[Conway]

Regarding Lewis, as much as I am NOT a Lewis fan I would have ot agree with you .. His overall career would make him probably the top track adn field athlete of them all .. But individually I would only rank him number 1 in one event .. He would not make my top 3 in any other .. Maybe not even 5 ..

As for the women's 100 .. Devers won 2 Olympic golds .. And several US titles .. She was off and on throughout her career when it comes to the European season itself .. But has been a winner in those events that mattered .. Now Ottey on the other hand I placed 3rd primarily on her longevity in the event and consistency at such a high level .. Her problem was that she was the perrenial bridesmaid .. ALWAYS a runner up .. BUT she was only runner up to the best the event has ever seen .. And then only in the big meets .. Now Ottey ruled the European season .. So she and Devers are really almost diametrically opposed to each other .. And almost through identical careers on the time line .. Therefore they occupy spots 2 & 3 .. ..

Now Torrence .. She would make my top 5 in this event .. And I'll talk her better event in a minute .. Marion is in a unique situation .. While she was very fast on the clock for three seasons (1998 to 2000) That is a blip on the map when you look at the careers of the others I have named .. Whereas dominace on the men's side can be marked in 2 or 3 year segments .. On the women's side we are looking at decades at a pop ..

But since we wanted to take a look at Torrence, let's talk about the women's 200 .. Top 3:

1. Irena Szewinska - Dominant .. Long career .. Record setter .. Ran sub 23 in the late 60's !!!! Brought this and the 400 into the modern era .. Won Olympic gold .. Consider that 40 years later she would hav medalled at Worlds !!! And with her competitive nature and todays tracks quite likely would have won !!!

2. Gwen Torrence - A consistent performer under the 22.10 level when ever it mattered .. Olympic gold .. 21.72 PR .. One world championship and robbed of another .. Gwen did it all .. The only negative is that she left before she finished the job ..

3. Marita Koch - The dominant German through the 80s .. First under 22.00 .. Rewrote the record books in this event .. And had no peer - save for Evelyn Ashford .. May have rated higher but split time here with the 100 and the 400 ..

Note: Ashford would have made this list had she done more than shown up here occasionally .. HIgh level competitor when she did, she just didn't appear here enough ..

FloJo, same story here as in the 100 although career wise she performed better overall here than she did in the 100 .. And she did garner a silver in the 87 Worlds ..

[Dan]

Are you working on the women's sprint history chapter of your book now?

Dan

[Micah Ward]

Seems like we have had a similar discussion on distance runners. When we are looking for the best of all time I tend to rate heavily a persons consistency and ability to dominate the competition of their day. Seems like you guys mention that a lot too. So why has no one brought up Edwin Moses? I would think he would be an obvious choice. 10 years undefeated!
Micah

[Dan]

Good question. I was too young to fully grasp what he was accomplishing, but my impression was the level of competition for him wasn't all that high until the end of his career, at which point he became beatable. Similar to Carl going 9 or 10 years without improving in the long jump, but staying unbeaten during that time, then finally pr'ing and getting beaten!

Dan

[Conway]

Actually I was hoping we could go through all the events .. .. Including the distances .. Just happened to pick those first cause I thought they might be controversial and spark some debate .. But when I get a break later this morning I will attempt the men's 400 H .. I do appreciate consistency AND winning .. But sometimes (as when we talk about the men's long jump) the greats are competing at the same time .. So you may be a perrenial runner up, but to the best ever !! Back to work, but back in a bit ..

[Conway]

Let's take a look at the men's 400H ..

1. Edwin Moses - Unquestionably #1 .. Multiple record setter .. Domintes the all time list .. Revoutionized the event (first 13 stepper for the entire distance) .. Multiple Olympic and World gold medallist .. Someone had raised the questoin of his competition .. When you look at the all time list you will see that he ran against nearly all the greats of the modern era save those few who came along in the 90's .. He did have only minor competition up to say 1980 (HE debuted in 1976) .. But from that point forward there was Andre Phillips, Harald Schmid, Danny Harris, Samuel Matete .. These guys ran 47.19, 47.48, 47.48, and 47.10 ... They were not dogs .. Moses also had a winning streak of over 100 races !! Although I am less impressed by this stat as later in his career he was obviously choosing to race less to protect the streak .. None the less the best the event has ever seen andthe best ever seen in any event ..

2. Harald Schmid - Dominated Europe during the 80's .. Olympic and World medallist .. The only thing standing in his way was Edwin Moses .. One of those perrenial runner ups who was in the wrong place at the wronge time .. Same time as Edwin Moses !!!

3. Kevin Young - Hard to leave off the man that took the event below 47.00 .. Olympic gold medallist .. My hesitation was longevity .. Harris and Phillips lasted much longer in the event at a very high level .. But what Young did during his tenure is hard to ignore ..