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Periodization
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Conway
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Joined: 25 Aug 2001
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Location: Northen California

PostPosted: Mon Sep 30, 2002 10:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

coachd wrote:
Conway...As for Tudor Bompa being "old hat"...guess that's like saying the guy who invented the jump shot is passe...


In reality the inventor of the jump shot is passe ... Today's "jump shot" while bearing resemblence, is a far cry from the original sethsot/jump soht as it was invented ... similiarly improvements and variations have been given to the idea of "periodization" .... so while bearing Bumpa's in theory, could be a far cry from Bumpa's in terms of implememntation ...

coachd wrote:
Tim Montgomery works with Trevor Graham and I'm very sure periodization is a large part of the training program. What you are talking about sounds more like the specifics of the training elements within the plan. In this Graham is different than say, John Smith(Greene) or Tom Tellez(Lewis, Burell). He uses some technical equipment (like the Reactime system) to develop the various parts of the 100 meter sprint--start, drive phase, deceleration, etc. and then gets his athletes to put these together in the training. In contrast, say Tellez, tries to get athletes to focus on the whole race as one entity in training and expands out from the start to finish. If you watch a Graham trained athlete in the 100 you can almost see them thinking about the different phases of their race.


Tellez' sprinters worked on distribution of energy through out the race ... ONe of the reasons why almost all of them were adept at 200 meter sprinting ... IF that is what you mean by looking at the race as one entity ...

Aside from Marion and Tim who else has Graham coached ??? Not sure that see the same type of race that you describe out of either Mrion or Tim .. Both typically have a poor start ... Followed by a rush to trasition ... Followed by a furioius end run ... Of course that coudl just be poor implementation of the system on their part ...

Conway
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coachd
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 30, 2002 10:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well that's exactly what I'm saying about the Graham sprinters--you see the different phases when they run...I didn't say it was "good" and in fact, think it is a poor way to run a 100...results notwithstanding. To me they seem to think the race rather run the race. And I agree totally about the Tellez approach and the distribution of effort throughout the race.

The inventor of the jump shot may be passe, but it still the basis for a whole lot of scoring. That's all I was saying. Things gets updated and improved...jump shots, golf balls, training ideas.
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coachd
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 30, 2002 10:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I forgot to reply to your question about Graham...

He also coaches Ken Brokenburr, Jerome Young, Michelle Collins, Latasha Richardson and several Carribbean Olympians, coached Antonio Pettigrew.
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Conway
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 30, 2002 10:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

coachd wrote:
I forgot to reply to your question about Graham...

He also coaches Ken Brokenburr, Jerome Young, Michelle Collins, Latasha Richardson and several Carribbean Olympians, coached Antonio Pettigrew.


Thank you ... I appreciate that ...

Now THAT is a telling list ... All lack a substantial middle phase to their races ... And all are underachievers against their potential ... Not that a coach can always be held accountable for their under achievers ... But none of those has improved beyond their collegiate performances ... And in actuality neither have Montgomery or Jones under his tutaledge (sp?) ...

Now I ammore curious than ever about his "system" ...

Conway
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Dan
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 30, 2002 11:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I don't think anyone has ever said..."this is the best system to train athletes and here is the scientific data to prove it..."

Maybe not, but that seems to be what is often implied, both by the author and the disciples. If someone presents a good system as what it is -- a system that has produced good results and is based on sound principles -- then I have no problem with it. Rarely are people satisfied keeping it that simple, though.

Dan
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Conway
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 30, 2002 1:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think that the phrase "let the buyer beware" holds very much so for systems ... Good coaches should be careful of the systems they choose to use ... For example, take Treveor GRaham ... One could find out about the system he uses and given that Marion Jones and Tim MOntgomery work with him decide on THAT basis to use the system .. Looking deeper however, one may decide not to based upon others that have unsuccessfully used the system ..

I think all systems are that way ... MOstly lbecasue of the myriad of differences between individuals ... What's good for the goose may NOT be good for the gander ... And books and other training aterials should come wiht a 'disclaimer" stating as much ..

Conway
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Dan
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 30, 2002 1:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Unfortunately, there is an unwritten rule in coaching that in order to share your system with people, you have to make it sound like there are no uncertainties contained therein...

Dan
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Distance_Guru
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 30, 2002 6:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't know about uncertainties, but one thing almost all of the successful coaches I've come into contact with in person say the phrase "yeah you could do that" when you talk to them about training methods and how to get certain results. As for the certainity issue, one thing that all coaches that have a clue what thier doing is that they are all certain they are running the best system for their cituation. Otherwise they wouldn't be using it. And when they right books, articles, ect that comes out.

wrote:
If someone presents a good system as what it is -- a system that has produced good results and is based on sound principles -- then I have no problem with it. Rarely are people satisfied keeping it that simple, though.


That sounds remarkably familiar, sort of like what I said about Joggers Digest. And as you told me, these people are in the business of selling books or magazines. And if they came out and said that then it wouldn't be a very good job of marketing would it?
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Dan
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 30, 2002 6:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Touche. Smile

The one key difference I would cite is target audience. As I have said before, I have seen RW editors admit that their publications are geared toward recreational runners. Are technical running books something that should, or need be, marketed?

Dan
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Conway
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 01, 2002 5:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think that magazines suffer the same problem that track and field in general lin this country has - they don't really know who is reading their stuff NOR who their target market really is ... And the one thing they all do (they as in track and field and the magazines) is irritate and alienate thier core audience in the attempt at finding new followers !!!!!

Conway
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Dan
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 01, 2002 7:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Was RW's core audience a more non-recreational group at one point? I know they've got a former all-star group of runners writing for them...

Dan
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Conway
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 01, 2002 8:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

RW was born during the beginning of the "Running Boom" so I am guessing a mix of casual AND serious with the greater percentage being casual/recreational ... And I am guessing that more than any other running/track related magazine they have a greater share of the casual runner ...

Conway
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Distance_Guru
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 01, 2002 2:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wrote:
Are technical running books something that should, or need be, marketed?


That is a very good question. I think that they (like all products) have to be marketed at some level. The thing is that their target market really varies in size and level. And about the only way that I know to tell who exactly their target audience is to ask someone who has read them because the book reveiws usually don't say great for the high school runners or geared for the serious post collegian. And it's pretty hard to tell the quaility of a book by the picture of the cover and the name of the author printed on the last page of another book on running. Basiclly it often comes down to knowing your authors. Hal Higington (and I'm sure I misspelled his name) writes training books for entry level, and recreational racers, Irv Rays and Joe Newton's books for the most part are geared towards high school coaches and runners. Bowerman and Vigils books are geared towards college coaches and athletes. While Martin, Coe, Daniels and Lydiard's books are generally geared for athletes that take their training very seriously and are geared toward the top high school, college and serious road racer. There are some exceptions (Coe has a book out called Training for Young Runners, I beleive, obviously geared towards the high school and younger crowd) but all in all knowing the author is the best way to if the book is for you.

The problem is since few if any of these books will turn into huge money makers for the publisher the public is genreally left to word of mouth to find out who should utilze each book and in what context it should be taken.
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Dan
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 01, 2002 3:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

All the more reason I'm hoping the user review option recently added to the running links directory will be put to use... Smile You can read reviews at Amazon and the like, but you don't get as many specific or useful opinions with such a broad scope to the site. Niche reviews can be much more meaningful (hint, hint).

Dan
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 01, 2002 3:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I like that idea. I'll have to check that out. Smile
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