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Distance_Guru
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 Posted: Fri Jun 21, 2002 8:07 am Post subject: |
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| Dan wrote: | It truly is hard to comprehend the demands of maximum intensity exhertion when your frame of reference is endurance pacing. That's why I cringe when I hear about speedwork being 400's slightly faster than marathon race pace... 
Dan |
Sounds like the way I cringe when ever I here people call any form of interval training speed work.
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Dan
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| Posted: Fri Jun 21, 2002 8:12 am Post subject: |
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Ditto on that. You've probably seen several threads where I've tried to differentiate between speed work and pace work.
Dan |
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Conway
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| Posted: Fri Jun 21, 2002 8:26 am Post subject: |
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The stress put on your body during a 10 sec sprint is exhausting ... Let alone over 200/300/400 meters ... I have run some road races and I can tell you that the difference between getting tired during a road race and gettting tired during an all out sprint is like the difference between cooking in an oven and cooking in a microwave ... The microwave takes less time but the work done is the same ... The work in a sprint may even be harder in some ways as the stress/torque etc placed on the body in that short time span is incredible ...
I've run road races where after an hour or so I could go out and job and "warm down" ... I've run mile relay legs where I was no good to do anything until the next day !!! |
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Distance_Guru
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| Posted: Fri Jun 21, 2002 8:28 am Post subject: |
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And evenbeyond that there are several sub-catagories of both. In the pace side you've got anaerobic conditioning (Lacate Threshold) aerobic capacity (VO2 max) and strait pace memory work (which can be either depending on your race). Inside speed you have anerobic capacity (pure speed) and lactate tolerance. And then you've got combo workouts don't even get me started there 
I know not everybody likes all the specific names and scientific terms for training but they sure help me organize and understand training plans.
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training2run
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| Posted: Fri Jun 21, 2002 10:40 am Post subject: You cringe? |
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I've run 10Ks (they're the hardest for me), marathons, 50Ks. I've run up the sides of mountains and I've run across entire states. But the toughest athletic contest I've ever been in was one particular long and hilly bike race.
I raced until everything was gone, and my legs completely froze up. When I could finally get one leg to work, I peddled until it froze again, and changed legs. I kept this up until I crossed the finish line, and was helped from the bike.
This is the only time in my life, that I can recall, that I gave absolutely everything I had...there was nothing else to give, and *IT WAS WONDERFUL.*
By the way, I have, on many occasions, run 50 and 100 yards all out, and know full well what it feels like to want to throw-up your entire insides.
Since I have run everything from 50 yards to five hundred (plus) miles, I would say that I'm qualified to make a comparison...and it is my opinion that it is absolutely impossible to compare an ultra-short distance to an ultra-long distance.
If you run them to the extent of your ability, they are all both horrible and wonderful in their own way. Mad Dog Mike www.training2run.com |
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Dan
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| Posted: Fri Jun 21, 2002 12:52 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Since I have run everything from 50 yards to five hundred (plus) miles, I would say that I'm qualified to make a comparison...and it is my opinion that it is absolutely impossible to compare an ultra-short distance to an ultra-long distance. |
I beg to differ. The irony is that the very fact you're capable of running 100's of miles makes you unqualified to comment with direct experience as to the impact of true maximum intensity exhertion. You yourself said you have nary a fast twitch fiber in your body, so you cannot expect to produce the same forces as a sprinter who would be tuckered out after jogging 3 laps, let alone 3 or 30 miles. Your body simply is wired differently. You can push yourself to a higher/faster level than you're accustomed, but you're still working primarily from an endurance base and could probably repeat the activity after a very short recovery (sort of like the common statements from distance runners that "I can only run 63 seconds for the quarter, but I can run 65's for 8 laps...").
There is, however, no question that any of the above discussed activities can push you beyond the exhaustion threshold, but that's not exactly what's being discussed.
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training2run
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| Posted: Sat Jun 22, 2002 3:44 am Post subject: Maximum Intensity |
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In a given activity/distance, Maximum intensity is Maximum Intensity! The actual speed is of no import from a subjective standpoint.
Two people, of completely different potential, who perform the same activity to the limit of their "personal ability," will experience similar side effects (pain, exhaustion, wanting to die, etc.,) from a strictly subjective standpoint.
Quite apart from the above, there is absolutely no way to compare racing 50 yards with racing 50 miles. They have nothing to do with each other...you know, like apples and bananas, bangers and mash, Martin and Lewis. Mad Dog Mike [/url]www.training2run.com |
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Dan
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| Posted: Sat Jun 22, 2002 6:40 am Post subject: |
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You're missing the point...
| Quote: | | In a given activity/distance, Maximum intensity is Maximum Intensity |
Maximum intensity is not maximum intensity when you're talking about pacing. Wrong terminology, wrong concept.
No question that the demands of sprinting and distance running cannot be compared. That's what I said at the very start of the thread... What I'm saying is there's no way for an endurance athlete to understand the physical demands of sprinting, just like there's no way I'd be audacious enough to assume I understand what it's like to run for 100 miles.
It takes more than just effort to push one's self into the regions of true exhaustion. There also needs to be a certain level of innate ability to leave the comfort zone that disguises true effort. I saw a great quote from Doc Rivers about center Michael Doleac's pulled hamstring a year or two ago. To paraphrase, "I thought you had to be fast to pull a hamstring. That's like a Ford Pinto blowing a cylinder."
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training2run
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| Posted: Sat Jun 22, 2002 6:49 am Post subject: Pacing? |
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Who said anything about pacing?
If an ordinary runner and a very fast runner both run their guts out for 50 or 100 yards, their pain levels are comparable. I say comparable, rather than identical, because we all have differing perceptions.
You don't have to be a super-star to feel the pain. Mad Dog Mike www.training2run.com |
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Dan
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| Posted: Sat Jun 22, 2002 7:21 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Who said anything about pacing? |
From the line I quoted from you in the previous post, it sure sounded like that's what you were talking about... "any given distance" Unless it's a short sprint, pacing comes into play, so I don't see how that implied statement can be removed from the equation.
| Quote: | | If an ordinary runner and a very fast runner both run their guts out for 50 or 100 yards, their pain levels are comparable. |
Pain yes, but not the effects on the body. You're preoccupied with the discomfort factor. I'm talking about the internal demands on the body. The forces, torques, and impacts that cannot be produced unless the body is capable of explosive activity, which is a necessity in sprinting but unheard of in distance running.
Take Gebresalassie, for example. Even though he can finish the last 200m of a respectably paced 10k faster than I can run an open 200, I wouldn't be surprised if he's never experienced true sprint intensity. He may be the greatest example ever of someone who can cover the mid-distance and distance spectrum with the best at every level, but he's simply not a power athlete.
As Paul knows from reading Speed Trap, one thing Charlie Francis talks about a lot is his belief that having competed at a high level in the sprints allowed him to understand what his athletes were feeling. It wasn't until Ben had exceeded his own times that he had to start instructing from something other than personal experience. Sort of like travelling blind...
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Distance_Guru
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| Posted: Sat Jun 22, 2002 7:59 am Post subject: |
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I'll throw in my two cents here. I think both of you are on to something. First off I'm not sure whether the effects of running are the same if you are an explosive athlete compaired to an endurance athlete. First off the torque and exertion is going to be a lot greater in an explosive athlete, also this athlete may experience realativly less discomfort because this type of exertion is much more familiar to this athlete. While in the endurance athlete the torque and even the exertion level won't be as high because of lack of familiarity. Which is also the reason this athlete would likely experience more discomfort. And the opposite would of coarse would be true in an endurance situation.
Disclaimer: I have nothing but my own experience to go on here, not any real research.
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Dan
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| Posted: Sat Jun 22, 2002 8:03 am Post subject: |
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From a comfort/discomfort standpoint, you are very much correct. That's still not what I'm talking about, though...
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Distance_Guru
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| Posted: Sat Jun 22, 2002 8:18 am Post subject: |
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What I was trying to say was that I thought Dan was right about the physical stress levels of explosive vs endurance athletes. While I think we are all in agreement about the discomfort levels. I just think that were not all on the same page rather than being in real disagreement.
| Dan wrote: | As Paul knows from reading Speed Trap, one thing Charlie Francis talks about a lot is his belief that having competed at a high level in the sprints allowed him to understand what his athletes were feeling. It wasn't until Ben had exceeded his own times that he had to start instructing from something other than personal experience. Sort of like travelling blind...
Dan |
This may be a little off topic but one thing I've noticed about sprint coaches compaired to distance coaches is that sprint coaches seem to base most of their training on experience rather than on theory or a training philosophy that they have read about. Possibly because of the old those that know don't tell thing. While most of the distance coaches I know base as much of the stuff they do on things they've read about as things they actually did as athletes. Also the percentage of distance coaches that were good distance runners is much smaller than the percentage of sprint coaches that were good sprinters.
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training2run
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| Posted: Sat Jun 22, 2002 8:36 am Post subject: I surrender |
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Seems to me that ships are passing in the night and failing to make contact.
No question: if the support structure is the same, and more explosive force is applied to one than the other, the potential for damage is greater where the explosive force is greater.
However, it was my impression (incorrect, I guess) that the question was "the perception of pain."...a primarily subjective rather than physiological focus.
If we switch to the physiological, I would probably agree: the potential for over-stressing is probably greater for a powerful sprinter, in a dash, then it is for a trained ultra-distance runner, running (correctly) in an ultra-distance race. Mad Dog Mike www.training2run.com |
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Dan
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| Posted: Sat Jun 22, 2002 9:33 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | the potential for over-stressing is probably greater for a powerful sprinter, in a dash, then it is for a trained ultra-distance runner, running (correctly) in an ultra-distance race. |
I'm not sure how else to phrase this... I'm not talking about the stresses of distance running!!! No attempt at comparing the two. What I'm saying is a distance runner cannot (or at least is incredibly unlikely to) experience maximum intensity sprint mechanics. It isn't in their makeup.
DG, you're probably right about more sprint coaches having been successful athletes than their distance counterparts. Despite the Francis statements, I'm still not sure I buy into the notion, though. Given my belief that he may be the greatest sprint coach ever, I can't exactly dismiss it, however...
Dan |
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