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Training Talk
~The Mile/1500m Run~
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Dan
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 04, 2010 3:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ssteve235 wrote:
The last time i did a pure 200 meter workout, 12x200 with a 50 meter walk, 25 meter jog recovery, i averaged out at about a 30 but my 400 time is 56, so im not sure wat you are talking about.

To be fair, that's not a "pure" 200m workout... It's basically an 800m workout that consists of a large number of 200's. You weren't testing your top end 200m speed. If you were, it would have taken a lot longer to recover from each one. Wink

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ssteve235
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 04, 2010 4:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ahhhh true, i was just thinking of the last time i did a workout with just 200s and nothing else
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Angelo Z
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 04, 2010 5:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You would be running 26-27ish 200s instead. In order to run a 56 second 400, your 200m repeats must be faster than 28 seconds at the least. The faster you want to run the 400s, the more short intervals you have to do. So to run 50 sec. 400s, 200s at 23 seconds won't be enough. You'll need 11 sec. 100s and then build that to 200s, then 400s. Keep in mind that this is all about leg speed. A miler running 8x400 at 54 with 5 min. rest varies greatly from a miler running 10x400 at 54 with 30 seconds rest (Hicham El Guerrouj).

If you try to run fast short intervals with short rests, then that becomes a race pace workout. Only effective right before a race, look at how soon Hicham ran the 1500 after his 10x400m workout in his training. If he were to do neuro, he would probably run them at 50-51 seconds instead.
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ssteve235
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 05, 2010 2:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="Angelo Z"]You would be running 26-27ish 200s instead. In order to run a 56 second 400, your 200m repeats must be faster than 28 seconds at the least. quote]

Last outdoor track season i didnt do a single workout in which my 200 repeats averaged faster then 30 but yet i still ran a 56 400.
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Angelo Z
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 05, 2010 3:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You don't have to. I'm just saying that you have that ability, you don't necessarily have to run them at that pace. Your 30 sec. 200s with short rests and your 56 sec. 400m is already an indicator that you can run 26-27 sec. intervals.

Your speed also came from the hills you did, or you gained speed as a product of 90 days of exposure to track running. That 400 was also race, the other people allow you to mentally run faster because you have someone to catch. There are a lot of variables but nevertheless, you DO have the ability to run 26-27 sec. 200s.
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ssteve235
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 05, 2010 3:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh my bad, i thought you were saying that in order to run a 56 400, your 200 repeats MUST be in the 26-27 range. And yes the speed came from other workouts such as hills and short sprint work.
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Angelo Z
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 05, 2010 5:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you can, try doing a neuro workout. They are almost always neglected and the biggest misconception that distance runners have is using distance as an indicatior for how fast they want to run. Of course that you can run short repeats much faster, but distance runners call it a "fast" workout if say...10x400m @ 68 seconds with 90 sec. rests felt very intense which isn't an indicator for pure leg speed. So keep in mind that whenever you do 400s or shorter repeats, it was only a "fast" workout only because you are running 400s and not 2000s, but the 400s are not "fast" 400s. Neuro workouts are like powerlifting with 2 key factors: near maximal exerted force, and plenty of rest.

Try doing 8-10x400m @ 66 seconds with 5 min. rests and have another neuro session where you would be doing 16-20x200m @ 27-28 seconds with 3-4 min. rests. You can have a second 400m workout instead of the 200s but you will adapt faster if you have a workout with shorter repeats to help your slightly longer repeats. Once your legs "learn" that speed, then you can replace the 200s with the second 400s and work on decreasing the rests (60-90 seconds).

The most common types of 400s are those with short rests, or at mile pace. They are like the version muscle mass weightraining or body building because you are combining speed with lactic endurance. However, if you really want to kill people with speed, just throw in 2 neuro sessions a week. The best part about them is that they don't really fatigue you which can force you to do a recovery/easy run the day after.
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ssteve235
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 05, 2010 6:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ohhhhh, I have done neuro workouts I just didnt realize thats what they were called. I remember one workout last track season of 400s averaging at 67-68 with a long recovery, easy 400 meter jog, somewhere between 3-5 minutes.
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Angelo Z
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 19, 2010 2:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Added one tmepo a week now which is 8 miles @ 4:40-4:50ish mile pace. The neuro workout is helping a ton, I want to drop that to 52 seconds. I have also changed my mind about the mileage build-up. I think that I will never go past 75 miles a week ever again. The new idea now is to just make 75 miles harder and harder as the years pass by so I'm starting to move away from that whole concept of cutting back and recovering because I'm already used to 75 miles anyways.

I have also started to question the long run lately. In fact, I am deciding to have a different approach towards my training and start splitting up my runs to improve the quality of my runs. Too many people focus on the energy pathways as opposed to getting their legs used to various speeds. I might Hicham's training this summer at a slightly easier level for myself to see how it all works out. It's not about just copying his training, but it's about trying something totally new such as the training cycles he does as opposed to the good old summer base mileage we westerners use.
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Angelo Z
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 28, 2010 4:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In two weeks, I shall begin my official mile training. I will be doing 5 workouts a week with only 2 days as easy run days. I will also run only 1 mile time trial as the very last "workout" day of my mile training before I begin my summer training.

I have now dropped the 400s this week to 52 seconds and starting to decrease the recovery time at around 90-120 second rests before I decrease the recoveries to 60 seconds and lower my pace to 54-55 seconds and replacing my 200m workout on Tuesdays so that I will be doing the same 400m workout twice a week in order to drill it in. However during my mile training, I will add in the 200m workout again and focus on decreasing the recoveries for the 400s even further.

The training will consist of the same workouts every week without changing them or their position. Only one workout will have mixed intervals within the other ones will just be all 400s, 200s, and so on.
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•London 2012 XXX Olympiad•
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Angelo Z
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 03, 2010 4:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The training for the mile has basically included 300s @ 36-38 seconds, 400s @ 56ish with short rests, and 600s with short rests as well. I've been doing some tempos down in the 4:30 mile pace range, and thinking of doing a future workout of 20x100m @ 11 seconds with 10 second rests.

Also started doing pull ups, chin ups, dips, and hurdle jumps once a week after school. I have no long run either, I only run up to 60 minutes max. Workouts are still 3 a week, it will be 4-5 in May.
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