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Jafar · Water Boy Joined: 22 Aug 2002 Posts: 38 Location: SLC, UT

I'm in the process of trying to get faster in the 5k. I seem to have endurance, I can go for 4 miles or so, but I'm slow as hell. I am also a fast sprinter, quick through the 100. But for some reason my 1 mile and 3 mile times are a total damn abortion. I've used the charts and calculators and such, but they don't seem to apply to me. I can run the 1/4 in about 94 seconds, but my mile comes out to 8:15! what is that about? Is this just a mental thing? because when I'm in the middle of a "long" run, 2-4 miles for me, I feel like I want to die. But when I'm done, I don't feel to bad, not puking or anything like that. After a few minutes I feel fine. Is this a lactic acid thing? Or just plain laziness? SHould I be concentraing on distance or speed? I just started training hard, and go 7 days a week. One day on the road, my hard day, then one day on the treadmill for an easy jog. Alternating as such. Just started incorporating hills and some sprints.

I know weight is a big issue for me. I'm 5'7 and 195 lbs. I'm a hard core weightlifter guy trying to make the transition into endurance stuff. I don't want to lose my hard earned lean mass but I could stand to lose a little chunk.

Any advice would be much appreciated.

Dan · Posted: Sun Nov 17, 2002 12:06 am Post subject:

Distance_Guru · Posted: Mon Nov 18, 2002 6:14 am Post subject:

My advice is patience. Sometimes training is like beating your head against a wall. But if keep at it you will get better. When I was training seriously I would go through stretches of 6 weeks or more where it felt like I wasn't getting better at all and then I'd hit a 2 week stretch where every run I went on I seemed to get faster. Just keep plugging away and you will get better.
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Paul · Posted: Mon Nov 18, 2002 5:23 pm Post subject:

Jafar, your training over the last 6 years has been exclusively creatine-phosphate energy based. There is a cardio carry over effect from any training, but the kind of workouts you have been doing, do nothing for sustained running. Your body is rebelling against the kind of training it's used to.

Assuming you are serious about Marine OCS, and want to make the military a career, I think you will have to resign yourself to the prospect of shedding quite a bit of weight. And I mean like 30 lbs.

I think doing some interval training at faster than race pace with cutting the rest interval down on a weekly basis will do much for getting your body more into the running mode.

Something like 400 x 8 in 1:50 with a one minute rest, eventually down to 30 sec rest interval. If you get down to 1:40 for 8-12 400's with a 30 sec walk between each, you will find yourself running well under 7 min for a mile and 23 for 5K. Use your other days for sustained running to get your body used to aerobic energy pathways.

Anaerobic alactic training and aerobic training do not complement each other, they compromise each other. It's something you will have to contend with from a psychological standpoint as you attempt to increase your 5K speed.

Paul

Jafar · Water Boy Joined: 22 Aug 2002 Posts: 38 Location: SLC, UT

Thanks to everyone for the input. I've actually seen some progress since I posted this. I ran a 7:49 mile today, and went a total of 3.5. Did some quarters, (100 sec) and some all out sprints as well. Last Tuesday my 1 mile was 8:52, so I've taken off more than a minute in less than a week. I may be getting over the hump. I am dropping some weight, but not a whole lot. If I dropped just 10 lbs. of fat I'd be 185 at like 9% BF. There are big dudes who can run a 19:00 3 mile. I'ts not that radical. I'm not trying to get like 16:00 or anything.

Dropping 30 lbs. would be awfully hard. I don't have 30 lbs. of fat on my whole body. I'd have to loose a significant amount of lean mass. I should be able to run a quick 3 mile at a lean 185.

I'm also done with the damn treadmill. I'll do my easy days on the road. Believe it or not, the treadmill hurts my shins worse than the road!

Oh yeah, one more thing. Do you hard core guys still get the coughing-phlegm crap going on after a run? Is this a sign of a lack of conditioning, or running in the cold? It's not real bad, and it's definately gotten better, but I still get it after hard days.

Dan · Posted: Mon Nov 18, 2002 11:58 pm Post subject:

Jafar · Water Boy Joined: 22 Aug 2002 Posts: 38 Location: SLC, UT

So I'm a little confused about this hard and easy day thing. The way I've been doing it is hard days consist of speed work and easy days consist of long distance easy pace runs. (I run 7 days a week) But I've seen Dan say that if you train to run slow, you'll get real good at running slow. But I've also seen it said that 80-90 % of your runs should be done at the easy pace. Please advise. I need speed more than anything else right now. I seriously need to drop a minute off my mile in order to get to my desired 3 mile time. (So I have to drop about 3:20 off my 3 mile time) Also, should I concern myself with negative splits right now? Like making each mile faster by a few seconds, or is that for the more advanced runners?

Micah Ward · Posted: Sat Nov 23, 2002 1:28 pm Post subject:

You got to have a balance of hard/easy. It would be easier if we all knew what your goal time was for the 3 mile. I assume from Paul's post you have a goal time in mind. For a targeted 3 mile run you need to be doing long runs once a week of a relaxed 5-6 miles. Then one speed day of 400's as you are doing now. Then one day that includes a two mile run at a pace that is close to your goal 3 mile pace. The rest of the week should be easy recovery. This is just my humble opinion.

Are you trying to get into Marine OCS? If so then I agree with Paul that you need to drop some pounds. The Marines are looking for overall fitness. While it is nice to have an impressive bench press total, they want someone to strap on 60 pounds worth of gear and march 10 miles with it and still be able to fight a battle when they get there. And you had better be able to do that just as well or better than they guys you are leading because you are going to be expected to set the example.

I had the opportunity to meet some SEALS during the preparation for the 1996 Olympics and train with some Special Forces guys at Fort Benning. Those guys were not bulky weight lifters. They were fit more like triathletes. From what I've seen that seems to work best in the military environment.

Good luck and keep us posted on how you do?
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Jafar · Water Boy Joined: 22 Aug 2002 Posts: 38 Location: SLC, UT

Yeah, I've actually been in the Corps for six years. When I was a little skinny guy out of boot camp I ran a 20:30 3 mile. Now I'm a hell of a lot bigger and I'm struggling to get to a 23:00. (of course I am now at 4600 ft. elevation) I don't have a whole lot of fat on my frame at all. Like I said I could be pretty damn lean at 185. OCS is al about running. I would like to be down to 18:00 in June when I go. But for now I'm concentrating on 23:00 to get contracted. I am in the process of dropping weight, but I don't think I'm gonna drop below 185.

Paul · Posted: Sat Nov 23, 2002 2:41 pm Post subject:

Jafar originally posted back in August under new to the forum, need a little advice.... My answers here were based partly in going back to review his original posts.

Paul

Hammer · Posted: Sat Nov 23, 2002 2:50 pm Post subject:

In my first year of coaching HS athletes I had 185 lb (5'9'') runner who made my varsity (#5 runner) ON flat courses he was a mid 18min. runner. He was very powerfull and an extremely hard worker. He did experience some problems with injuries. He had been running for 6 year befoe I coached him but he did improve about a minute (5k time) from his previous year's performances.

Paul · Posted: Sat Nov 23, 2002 3:11 pm Post subject:

I'm with Micah on this. In fact I was prepared to tap out a pretty long post detailing strength training vs endurance training and the compromises that occur, then shelved it. There's a good discussion on that subject in a Peak Performance online link off of the latest Steve Bennett newsletter.

Jafar, nothing here is meant to demean or make light of the activities you have pursued in the past, they have taken a lot of dedication and hard work. But if you are in the jungle somewhere and you get a short radio transmission to be at an LZ in an hour, 10 klicks away, I can think of 30 lbs that you wish you weren't carrying when you get to that time.

Micah Ward · Posted: Sat Nov 23, 2002 4:50 pm Post subject:

OK Jafar, if you've already been in for 6 years then you know more than I do about what is expected. Now it's just a matter of you getting it done. I was in the Air Force (which is almost like being in the military) so I wish you all the luck in the world. Thumbs Up

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Jafar · Water Boy Joined: 22 Aug 2002 Posts: 38 Location: SLC, UT

Yeah, I know what it's all about. In fact I've been to OCS. I went way back in '97, less than a year out of boot camp, but didn't complete my college degree in time, so now I'm doing it all over again. The advice I seek is about the most efficeint way to get my running back to where it use to be and needs to be. I'm getting there. The advice from everyone here has been most helpful.

Dan · Posted: Sat Nov 23, 2002 11:37 pm Post subject:

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