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will
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 04, 2002 12:07 pm    Post subject: Energy Systems Reply with quote

I happened to stumble across a post a while back about energy systems and how misunderstood they are. Would anyone like to enter a general discussion about systems, their beliefs and practices regarding this exercise phys. info? I'm open for learning. Will Steele
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 04, 2002 2:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Surprised
That's a rather technical and very broad topic. I'd be more than willing to discuss it but hows about narrowing it down a bit.
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Dan
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 04, 2002 4:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh gee ... is that all you want to discuss? Smile Let me grab my voice recorder so I can begin work on my next book when the discussion runs its course...

Dan
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will
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 05, 2002 6:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, I wanted to start with the basics and see what people know and don't know. Many people think they know something, and, depending on who read what when there are all sorts of interpretations.

Okay, so, all spited humor aside, what about the usage of the lactic versus alactic systems for MD racing? We'll start there.

From what I've read, there seems to be a big gap between traditional training methods (long runs, "tempo runs", long intervals, and, short speed work) and more "advanced" training methods (Morroccan and Kenyan being the only two I know much about) that teach their athletes to train this system on a daily basis.

For instance, I've read that El G and his squad hit a hard 10k in the middle of a 50:00 run almost every morning at about their "tempo" run pace. Now, granted, he's an exceptional case, but, the point remains: is there a middle ground that remains untrained for many, if not most, runners that helps to differentiate between the good and the great.

I've also read that training at this "hurt but hold" pace helps people in MD races to sustain their pace because it allows them to maintain good form when others are dying because of lactate accumulation.

How's that for a starting point? Still too big a bite to begin?
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Dan
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 05, 2002 3:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think you're on the right track with what is necessary in the preparation of a mid-distance runner for being prepared to handle just about anything. Where I differ in opinion is the notion that bringing the technical jargon into it adds anything. You started out talking about lactic acid and alactic acid (I've never even heard of the latter), but then went on to give very concrete examples of common sense stuff that is not at all depenent on lab talk to explain... I guess there's some place for that in a thread that started out asking about energy systems, but doesn't it all just boil down to the proper mix of speed, tempo, and endurance?

Dan
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 05, 2002 4:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I tend to agree with Dan. Although I'm generally more willing to engage in technical termanology usage than the chief pontificator, I too have never heard of alactic training. I would assume that means aerobic training, below the lactate threshold. Another thing that concerns me is you differentiating between what you called traditional and advanced training methods. I've studied the methods used by many kenyans and they all fall pretty much in line with the training methods described by Martin and Coe in Better Training for Distance Runners.

If you haven't guessed already I don't think there is much difference between how the best American's and Europeans train vs how the best Kenyans train. I think there is more difference in between individual athletes and coaches than between our top athletes and there top athletes system wide. The difference is mainly in perception. As Americans we see how every American trains not just our best, however we only read about the methods of the best foriegn athletes, and therefore we assume that all kenyans train like Tergat, and all Americans train like the local college cross country team, high school track team or area road racers.

Now as for the systemic demands of middle distance running. Are you asking about training demands or racing demands? In other words do you want to know what the type and frequency of different type of workouts should be or what percentage of an athletes energy comes from.
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will
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2002 6:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

As far as alactic goes, check out:

http://www.targetshooting.ca/train_energy.htm

As for the training concepts...I am wondering about various aspects of training and learning which can (and should be applied to individuals) depending on their energetic needs during races. For example, let's say you have someone who has a ton of speed, but, little stength. I know that often times, people would say, "Increase their mileage during base, get them doing longer intervals, and, give them time to develop their aerobic system." As for someone who has fair speed and a good endurance base, however, there are different responses. I know the basics. However, what I am trying to do is refine what I know about mid-season tweaking. For instance, you have runner who has a well-developed aerobic base and has refined their longer intervals into shorter, race-useful strength. This runner also has a fair kick, but, when s/he goes to surge in the middle of a race, their surge lasts too long, they fall off pace, and, the race falls apart.

To me, I see a weakness in the alactic system because the athlete was unable to handle the fast pace change. S/he was untrained for that. Now, how does that get trained?

Also, back to the question of Kenyans, Morroccans, etc. I have to disagree with one point: I don't think that, as a whole, Americans and Europeans train the same as most Africans. More often than not, African (from any country) tend to run hard a lot more often than Americans. From an early age too. That "hard" is slightly below "tempo" run pace; Marius Baken talks about that on his website:

http://www.mariusbakken.com/

Look under the Kenyan Training link. I believe that Americans are afraid to train hard like the Kenyans, for the myths of science, injury, and, burnout tell them so. Only people who push the limits discover there are much greater degrees of flexability within the laws of physiology than we are taught to think.

That proper blend that Dan talked about. I believe that is the perfect mixture people look for. My only problem is that I have been looking to Americans for it....and they, for the most part don't know. Those that do, don't tell.
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Dan
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2002 6:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
The difference is mainly in perception. As Americans we see how every American trains not just our best, however we only read about the methods of the best foriegn athletes, and therefore we assume that all kenyans train like Tergat, and all Americans train like the local college cross country team, high school track team or area road racers.

Interesting observation. I'll have to give that some thought...

Quote:
My only problem is that I have been looking to Americans for it....and they, for the most part don't know. Those that do, don't tell.

Hey, that's my line! Smile

Are you sure those are real terms on the targetshooting.ca page? It looks like they just assigned a term to differentiate the ATP/Creatine and Glycogen energy reserves.

Could this discussion better be framed as the question of how best to train to one's relative strengths and weaknesses?

Dan
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will
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2002 8:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dan, I see the point you are trying to make in hoping to keep the discussion simple by not adding another seemingly arbitrary technical term few people really understand. My notion was to explore what others have to say about it and then decide on whether or not it's worth bothering with as a training concept.

About alactic training, I know that either Brooks Johnson or Gags had his group doing a set of 30m sprints with 370m jog in order to help develop his athletes on a weekly basis. And, although it's somewhat different, I remember Coe suggesting a similar drill, but, later in the year, and, in a continuous fashion with a zig-zag group of 30m sprint/float drills. Then, an old coach of mine told me how one of Ron Clark's 40m sprint/60m float drills was an invaluable tool. Different approaches to what I think is a similar aspect of training. An aspect many distance (or even MD) guys both avoid and don't seem to recognize.

What I am shooting for with this thread, more than just addressing weakenesses, is to develop a comprehensive idea of what it takes to be a complete middle distance runner. I never knew about alactic training until a year or two ago, but, after rereading Martin/Coe's Better Training, I see the direct application. Yes, that could be reframed as a weakness if it has never been trained before. I'm just trying to see what other systems are out there that I haven't heard of yet.

Back to DG's quote: I think there are some large differences between training methods...and the difference is more than perceptual. I've read Toby Tanser's work on the Kenyan methods. The majority of younger athletes I've spoken with do similar running as well. From personal conversations I've had with Morroccans who came out of the same system El G (the top athlete we base our assumptions on) it seems pretty much that all talented juniors and seniors use the same systems. Then, there are the Japanese and Chinese. Their training methods (though I don't know too much about them) are out-of-this world. (They're more of a long-distance power though.)
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2002 10:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

w i l l wrote:
Also, back to the question of Kenyans, Morroccans, etc. I have to disagree with one point: I don't think that, as a whole, Americans and Europeans train the same as most Africans. More often than not, African (from any country) tend to run hard a lot more often than Americans. From an early age too. That "hard" is slightly below "tempo" run pace; Marius Baken talks about that on his website:

http://www.mariusbakken.com/

Look under the Kenyan Training link. I believe that Americans are afraid to train hard like the Kenyans, for the myths of science, injury, and, burnout tell them so. Only people who push the limits discover there are much greater degrees of flexability within the laws of physiology than we are taught to think.


I would have to agree with this ... I think we are almost too analytical sometimes ... In reality noone really knows what the limits rae to human development/performance ... One thing is certain - what the Africans do is possible ... Far too many of them achieve what appears to be almost unreachable by others .. And the one thing that they all seem to hvein common is lack of fear ...
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Dan
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2002 11:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
My notion was to explore what others have to say about it and then decide on whether or not it's worth bothering with as a training concept.

I'm not entirely clear on what "it" is... Do you mean the ElG-type system specifically, or generalities pulled form the basic African approach? I don't see how there can be any question whether or not it is a training concept worth bothering with... The evidence is rather conclusive! Thumbs Up

Quote:
a set of 30m sprints with 370m jog in order to help develop his athletes on a weekly basis.

That doesn't make much sense to me. 30m is so short that it can only really be of benefit if treated as maximum intensity speed/strength work, but that would require rest breaks, not continuous jogging. Seems like a very strange mix... The Ron Clarke 40/60 system makes a lot more sense. Then again, wasn't he notorious for not handling the surging tactics of championship races?

Dan
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2002 11:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

"It" is any aspect of training and physiology I had never heard of before and happened to be encoutering for the first time. If there was something I had never heard of until I saw the new info in one of these discussions, I would think about it, ask questions, study its applications and go from there.

I guess I see each of these systems (Kenyan, Morroccan, American) emphasizing different elements of training while the majority of the training can be viewed as being similar in nature. My point with using different systems as a basis for info and insight was to see if one idiosyncracy proved meaningful....for example, Morrocco's heavy usage of plyo versus Kenya's relative ignoring their usage. That just a hypothetical. What I shot for was seeing if all the different nuances of each system could be capitalized upon....translation, would it make sense to be heavy on plyo and hill work, for example, and, thereby blending Morroccan form drills with Kenyan hill work. There are lots of small aspects of each country's systems that only they emphasize and I thought it might be interesting to see how they fit into the bigger picture of creating a "perfect" training system that meets a complete athlete's needs.

As for the 30/370m thing, that's just something I saw. I'm inclined to think that a rest would be more consistent with the idea of speed/power too. At any rate, I have come from the school of mileage, some tempo runs, longer intervals, and, some short speed to taper. I know there's more "complex" (meaning, sophisticated training aimed to develop multiple energy systems at once) training out there. I just don't know what it is.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2002 3:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm sure the questions you're asking would lead to very deep answers, if only we had any way of answering them... This is actually pretty close to the point I was trying to make in a recent debate with DG and coachd about scientific research and the "perfect" training plan. There's really no way to comprehensively study what goes into the perfect plan, because there are far too many variables to account for and it takes far too long (10-15 years) to determine exactly what effect various combinations of variables will result in. All that can really be done is to analyze the effectiveness of a system already in place and look for tweaks that could maybe make it better. I don't think it's possible to build the perfect plan from the ground up, so I also don't think it's possible to answer your question.

Dan

p.s. If you log in before posting, you can get credit for your input and earn some stars. Smile
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2002 3:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Will, I like the way you're trying to look at things will. See what everyone is doing and try to take the best from each system. When I was first starting out I tried to do the same. And what I found was if you try to incorporate everything you end up doing one of two things, either overtraining because you are throwing too much at your body, or having too many nuances and not enough bread and butter training. The more training methods you incorporate into you training the more variables you end up with and the more things you have to take into account when designing your training. Because you can only do so much all at once and every new thing you add takes energy away from the types of training you're already doing. The key is peroidizing and prioritizing your training. Balancing the most important training tools in the right amount with the right rest at the right time.

Personally I like the periodzation that Martin and Coe set up in BTFDR, another sourse for examples of how to periodize is Lydiard's book Running to the Top. Even though I am personally influenced much more by Vigil and Coe than Lydiard, I think his training programs in this book set up a nice template to use as an example of how to periodize. Personally I really recommend looking closely at how he uses hill training in is programs. Even if you don't use any of his other training I think he does a nice job of useing hill training early on. Take the system you already are using with intervals and aerobic runs, implement some of Lydiards hill training early on decrease as you approach your competitive meets, while starting with realativly small amounts of plyo type workouts gradually increasing as the big meets approach and I think you can strike a good balance. But you will have to be very careful not to over extend yourself and to still get in all the intervals and aerobic runs you need at the proper level.

Program design is a juggling act.
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 23, 2002 2:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

aerobic -- long distance
lactic -- longer sprints
alactic -- 100 m and below

alactic uses energy stored within the cells and last at most 3 to 7 seconds
nota bene: no one can run at EVEN pace at the very maximum speed for more than a second...from USATF 'confidencial' tape...
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