Run-Down Forums Forum Index Run-Down Forums

 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch
 
Run-Down Forums Forum Index
Mid-Distance Depot
The Rabbit
Post new topic   Reply to topic

Goto page 1, 2  Next
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Run-Down Forums Forum Index -> Mid-Distance Depot
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Conway
Olympic Medalist
Olympic Medalist


Joined: 25 Aug 2001
Posts: 3570
Location: Northen California

PostPosted: Tue Oct 29, 2002 1:38 pm    Post subject: The Rabbit Reply with quote

The rabbit has become the favored animal on the European circuit ... He can be seen in just about any 1500 race and occasionally in an 800 or 5K ... He's even been seen in championship races of late, with Seneca Lassiter trading his soul this year to rabbit for ElG in the World Cup ...

Interestingly enough, however, the rabbit was illegal for most of the history of track and field ... It was in the rules ... No aid !!! One of the most lcosely observed rules in the sport ... Landy, Elliott, Ryun, Walker, Bayi, Ovett, Coe had ot do it themselves ... No help ... Then in the 80's the rules changed ... And now 1500 races have become funeral processions - a rabbit, the favorite, and those in the race for decoration !!!

Good or bad ??? Better before or better now ... Yes the record has dropped but is the event any better ?????
_________________
Conway
Speed Thrills
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Dan
Chief Pontificator
Chief Pontificator


Joined: 22 Mar 1999
Posts: 9334
Location: Salem, OR

PostPosted: Tue Oct 29, 2002 3:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
with Seneca Lassiter trading his soul this year to rabbit for ElG in the World Cup ...

That would be Lagat, not ElG, but point taken.

How was the wording of the rules changed? I believe "aid" is still not allowed, but if rabbiting is part of the event, then it isn't aiding any more than a fast track surface...

I don't have a problem with rabbiting. What I have a problem with is the athletes who choose not to make use of the rabbit and then complain about it after the fact. A coach of mine once said that there's no reason to lead a [mid-distance] race other than for ego. The point being that leading such a race takes too much out of you and sets you up for the kill. Without rabbits, the favorites rarely want to take that chance, so you end up with a lot of sit and kick nonsense. At least the rabbit ensures everyone will get out after it if they want a shot at the win. If someone can't hang with the rabbit's pace, too bad, they weren't fast enough to deserve the win!

Oh, and some might argue that Keino had rabbiting assistance from his teammate in the win over Ryun in '68...

Dan
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website AIM Address MSN Messenger
Conway
Olympic Medalist
Olympic Medalist


Joined: 25 Aug 2001
Posts: 3570
Location: Northen California

PostPosted: Tue Oct 29, 2002 3:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I threw out the word aid ... I would have to go back and see if I can find the way it was actually worded ... But it was very specific in talking about human's assisting and what that entailed ... It was specific enough that you knew rabbiting when you saw it !!! Coachd might know the wording better than I as I am guessing he was competing around that time based on things that have been written ... Wink

Keino and his teamate used racing tactics ... To me that is very much different than rabbiting ... As far as that goes that is how ElG lost the 2000 Olympics - the Kenyans used race tactics as opposed to rabbiting ...

Without rabbits you get to my premise that the best simply go out and outrun the competiton - if they are indeed that much better ... Which is what you used to have ... Races were fast before rabbiting took place ... Arguably faster - relative to existing records ... Forces head to head racing as opposed to time trials ... I would wager that Ovett or Coe would beat ElG in a race situation ...
_________________
Conway
Speed Thrills
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Dan
Chief Pontificator
Chief Pontificator


Joined: 22 Mar 1999
Posts: 9334
Location: Salem, OR

PostPosted: Tue Oct 29, 2002 3:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Keino and his teamate used racing tactics ... To me that is very much different than rabbiting ... As far as that goes that is how ElG lost the 2000 Olympics

If what Keino received was a racing tactic, not an aid, then I see it as little different as what ElG got from his teammate in his WC wins...

Dan
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website AIM Address MSN Messenger
Conway
Olympic Medalist
Olympic Medalist


Joined: 25 Aug 2001
Posts: 3570
Location: Northen California

PostPosted: Tue Oct 29, 2002 3:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dan wrote:
If what Keino received was a racing tactic, not an aid, then I see it as little different as what ElG got from his teammate in his WC wins...
Dan


I'm not disputing his WC wins .. Just every other race he runs .. Laughing
_________________
Conway
Speed Thrills
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Dan
Chief Pontificator
Chief Pontificator


Joined: 22 Mar 1999
Posts: 9334
Location: Salem, OR

PostPosted: Tue Oct 29, 2002 4:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Which is ironic, because those WC wins are the races he's taken the most heat for...

Dan
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website AIM Address MSN Messenger
Conway
Olympic Medalist
Olympic Medalist


Joined: 25 Aug 2001
Posts: 3570
Location: Northen California

PostPosted: Wed Oct 30, 2002 9:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have on problem with WCs becasue those races he pretty much just ran ... He had a rabbit for a lap maybe ... But one lasted a full 3 as he just took over and ran ...

ElG aside, what do people think of rabbits ???
_________________
Conway
Speed Thrills
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
35910
Water Boy
Water Boy


Joined: 02 Mar 2003
Posts: 64
Location: Pennsylvania, USA

PostPosted: Sun Mar 02, 2003 11:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think that if I was that calibre of a runner... I would simply go out and run my race.

I don't understand when I watch some championship races and they are all going purposefully slower than they can run.

"The only reason to lead a race is ego"?? what if everyone else is holding back for the sprint at the end, and you know that you dont have that kind of finishing speed, but you do have the ability to beat everyone out there at an even clip? Why not just dust everyone every time? Thats the kind of courage that we need at the top levels of racing to keep it competitive.

Maybe I don't understand the complete issue, but thats just my take on it.

~Jason
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail AIM Address
Conway
Olympic Medalist
Olympic Medalist


Joined: 25 Aug 2001
Posts: 3570
Location: Northen California

PostPosted: Sun Mar 02, 2003 12:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree with your philosophy ... Just doesn't seeem to be what distance runners want to do !!!
_________________
Conway
Speed Thrills
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Dan
Chief Pontificator
Chief Pontificator


Joined: 22 Mar 1999
Posts: 9334
Location: Salem, OR

PostPosted: Sun Mar 02, 2003 2:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
"The only reason to lead a race is ego"??

The point of that statement was that there are a very few number of people who can lead a race early and win, and those people are typically good enough to win it in other, less risky ways.

I just think rabbits make for more honest competition. The sport is about running as fast as possible, and that rarely happens in non-laned races without rabbits... Everyone in the race has the exact same opportunity to make use of the rabbiting, so I fail to see what the big deal is. Confused

Dan

(edited typo)
_________________
phpbb:include($_GET[RFI])


Last edited by Dan on Sun Mar 02, 2003 5:24 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website AIM Address MSN Messenger
Paul
Olympic Medalist
Olympic Medalist


Joined: 28 Apr 2002
Posts: 1610
Location: Oregon

PostPosted: Sun Mar 02, 2003 4:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dan, your points on rabbits are well taken. How many races have we witnessed where no one took advantage of the rabbit and the lead runner would be 15m in front of the pack??

It takes someone as tough as Aaron Young to lead wire to wire with a pace so consistent that only a second separated his lap times, dragging 4 others under NWC qualifying standards.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Dan
Chief Pontificator
Chief Pontificator


Joined: 22 Mar 1999
Posts: 9334
Location: Salem, OR

PostPosted: Sun Mar 02, 2003 5:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
How many races have we witnessed where no one took advantage of the rabbit and the lead runner would be 15m in front of the pack??

Far too many, unfortunately. What's worse, they usually know *exactly* what pace the rabbit will be running! There really should be no excuses.

Quote:
It takes someone as tough as Aaron Young to lead wire to wire with a pace so consistent that only a second separated his lap times, dragging 4 others under NWC qualifying standards.

That guy's as mentally tough as they come. Smile No coincidence that he went to the same HS as Prefontaine...

Dan
_________________
phpbb:include($_GET[RFI])
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website AIM Address MSN Messenger
Conway
Olympic Medalist
Olympic Medalist


Joined: 25 Aug 2001
Posts: 3570
Location: Northen California

PostPosted: Sun Mar 02, 2003 9:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think the big deal with rabbits is that they artificially set and hold a pace while the primary runner(s) get the opportunity to draft and rest ... Thereby gaining greater advantage when seeking records ...

Obviously no one is going to go out and establish a pace for someone else other than a countryman in a major race (except for one noted American) ... And even then a countryman is only going to sacrifice so much ... But in races where one is going after a record it seems a bit less genuine to have others pre-determined to set teh desired pace and then run to glory !!!
_________________
Conway
Speed Thrills
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Dan
Chief Pontificator
Chief Pontificator


Joined: 22 Mar 1999
Posts: 9334
Location: Salem, OR

PostPosted: Sun Mar 02, 2003 9:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
they artificially set and hold a pace while the primary runner(s) get the opportunity to draft and rest ...

Which is exactly what the rest of the field gets to do if the big gun is left to lead the race with no rabbit. Of course, you were talking more about record attempts, which I would see as a separate matter. I'm not quite sure how I feel about that... A record attempt probably should be more or less unassisted, but then what of records that come out of true competitive duals? Are those any more of a solo effort? If anything, I would say that's more of an assist, as it helps when things hurt the most.

Dan
_________________
phpbb:include($_GET[RFI])
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website AIM Address MSN Messenger
Conway
Olympic Medalist
Olympic Medalist


Joined: 25 Aug 2001
Posts: 3570
Location: Northen California

PostPosted: Sun Mar 02, 2003 9:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A competitive dual just means that both athletes were working their butts off and end up fighting it out to see who is best ... As opposed to someone sitting and gaining advantage off the assistance of someone else ... A fine line maybe but one that I think does exist ...

I just have a hard time with the whole pacing issue ... And I understand why it was "outlawed" for most of the existence of the sport ... NO other aspect of trackAND field gets that kind of assistance ..
_________________
Conway
Speed Thrills
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Run-Down Forums Forum Index -> Mid-Distance Depot All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Goto page 1, 2  Next
Page 1 of 2

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2002 phpBB Group