Run-Down Forums

[will]

I was reading your pursuit of the 2:00 800 and I can relate. That sort of speed has eluded me for years and I’ve recently begun to focus more on the middle distances than I used to. I’ve run some decent times for longer distances, but, for 10 years now I’ve done way, way too much mileage. I have tried to become a 5k runner off of 70-120 miles a week. I’ve beat myself up year after year hoping I would eventually get strong enough from all the running. Well, I’ve given up that routine. I like to believe what Coe and Auoita has better results with a whole lot less time and energy expenditure.

At any rate, I’m only doing about 30-45 miles a week, mainly 40, and, I’ve got a pretty good, though intense program. Basically it looks like this:

M 2wu + 10*300 @ mile Date pace w/:45R + 2wd
T 2wu + 4-5*1200 @ 5k date pace w/ =R + 2wd
W 6-8 easy (6:30-40 pace)
T 2wu + some sort of 800m workout + 2wd
F 2wu + 6*300 hill @ 2-mile date pace w/ 300 jog R + 2wd
S 2wu + 5*1600 @ tempo run pace w/ 3:00R + 2wd
S Off
M 2wu + 10*300 @ mile Date pace w/:45R + 2w
T 2wu + 6-8*800 @ 3k date pace w/ =R + 2wd
W 6-8 easy (6:30-40 pace)
T 2wu + some sort of 400m workout + 2wd
F 2wu + 6*300 hill @ 2-mile date pace w/ 300 jog R + 2wd
S 2wu + 2*3200 @ tempo run pace w/ 6:00R + 2wd
S Off
M 5
T 2wu + 3200TT + 2wd
W 7
T 2wu + 400TT + 2wd
F 3
S 2wu + 1600TT + 2wd
S Off

Right now, I’m doing base work. This 3-week pattern will be repeated 4 times before I move into my specific track development phase (18 weeks) and finally into a competition period (8 weeks). Okay, with all this in mind, I’m hoping to move my 400 and 800 meter times down. I’ve literally never concentrated on the 400 and have occasionally done 800 workouts, mainly to try and compensate my taper at the end of year. Definitely no full scale development.

What I am interested in is this: what sort of ideas would you suggest for the 400 and 800 meter days. I’ve looked at a few books on sprinting, and, that’s not what I need to focus on. At least, not with day after day of SPEED speed work. I do want to develop some plyo drills, form drills, and, pure speed development, along with some body-weight leg work, to help me capitalize on my underdeveloped speed.

My PR’s, similar to yours on the MD end are 26.2 (2002), 57.3 (2000), 2:03.3 (2002) 4:30 (2001) 9:06 (2002) and 15:35 (1999). I’ve got a lot more potential in the MD races, only, I need to learn how to run fast and not die. My biggest problem has not been endurance and strength, but, rather, sheer, brute force honed by intense speed sessions. Only last year, when I started running more than 3 hard workouts a week did I start to see times budge. I went from a 200 PR of 27+ to 26.2, and, my 800 went from 2:10 to 2:03.3. I suspect that I could have run faster for 800 cause when I ran 2:10, it was at the end of a 3 x 800 workout where I went (2:12-2:11-2:10) with a 400 recovery. I also set a PR for 600m this year, and, I went 1:29.9. I’d like to get to 1:22-4 for that benchmark TT this year, but, that’s months down the road. My mile was slow this past spring, only because I ran it once and it was 90 degrees outside when I did it. I only went 4:40. This year, I’m aiming high, not because I’m insane, but, because, with this intense a focus on the MD, I know my body ought to be able to at least run 4:16 and maybe 4:12 for the mile.

I know that speed work alone will not do it, so, I’m going to do body-weight leg work on Tuesday, Thursday and Saturday to develop the lower body muscle groups, and, plyos on Monday and Thursday (before the track work) along with upper weights on Monday, Wednesday and Friday.

Overall, it’s a decent program, but, with our experiences being so similar, I was wondering if you would recommend anything that helped you improve on your speed so much? Thanks and I apologize for the length of the e-mail. It’s pretty long-winded now that I look back at it. Anyhow, best wishes and I hope your year goes fast!!!

[Dan]

I like your general approach, but it seems to over-emphasize time trialing and racing in practice. I don't feel time trials should be run more than about twice per season, otherwise you're grinding yourself into the ground and never really giving yourself a chance to be fresh enough to pop a good race. This is evidenced by you running an 800m PR at the end of an interval workout, which tells me two things:

1) You could go much faster if properly prepared, and
2) Your schedule would need restructuring to provide sufficient rest leading up to races.

Time trials should be used to guage fitness and assess where you are at with regards to your training plan. Not everyone agrees with me on this point, but I don't believe time trials or race-intensity intervals should be run at the same distance as actual races (i.e. 100m, 200, 400, 800, 1600, 3200). The reason being that you do not want to be comparing practice times to race times. If they do compare well, then you're overdoing it in practice and probably not racing well. If the practice times don't look as good (as they shouldn't, because you're not racing and you're doing repeats), then it does you no good mentally to be comparing times... Basically, a lose-lose situation.

[got sidetracked for about 45 minutes with a phone call, so we'll see if anyone has replied since I started typing...]

Otherwise, I think you have a pretty good mix of training components. My approach to building speed is to make it distance specific. If you want to run the 600m in 1:22 to 1:24, break it down into the biggest component that you can maintain that speed for (if you can't hit that for a top end, then you know you have to start by working on raw sprint speed ), then build up. That might be repeat 200's at 27-28 seconds, or 300's if you can hold pace.

Dan

[will]

Yeah, the TT's are a new blend of racing/training that I'm experimenting with this year. Last year, I ran under a fellow from Australlia who had me doing this 2 hard/1 easy week approach. He used the 1 easy week to test fitness over different distances, mainly 400, 1000, and, 3000m, each for their respective systems: lactic, anaerobic and aerobic. At any rate, I liked the idea of being in touch with race-like conditions, mainly cause I get rusty very fast when it comes down to the middle distances; translation, I forget how to really hammer mentally. My hypothesis with the training/TT'ing experiment was that I would do Date Pace TT's over 3/4 distances on the 3 week mark, and, over full distance on the 6 week mark. So, I'd be doing a 3000, 300, and, 1200 TT once every 6 weeks and a 5000, 400, and, 1600TT every other 6 weeks.

It might put me in a bad spot before things are over with and I could burnout by the middle of the season, but, it's a learning process. One part of my rationale was that a progression based on reasonable improvements would allow my body to build up to handling the stress load necessary to race fast at the end of the year. The funny thing is that I'm running about 80-5% total effort compared to my higher mileage years and I'm already within 9 seconds of my mile PR this year (I ran 4:39 by myself on a track Tuesday afternoon and I know I'm still "out of shape" cause it took me too long to recover afterwards and my stomach was upset...an indirect sign my body has not adapted to lactate buildup from high intensity anaerobic workouts).

At any rate, I feel pretty comfortable with the blend of longer (i.e., 1500m pace work and above) workouts, but, still don't know how to do what you call speed work, that is, pure speed. I've looked at some things, but, don't know what I really need. I've got to build my overall strength levels first, I know that. But, I don't know how much of that will occus through drills, plyo, and, body weight weight workouts (like single-legged squats, lunges, etc.).

Also, I'm thinking of doing the two Thursday workouts like this:

T1: 2wu + Plyo/Drills + 8-12*100 @ 800 date pace + 8*60 + 2wd
T2: 2wu + Plyo/Drills + 1*300 + 2*200 + 4*100 + 8*60 + 2wd

These are early season workouts that will be tinkered with and refined throughout the year. My basic approach is to develop absolute speed (like you said) and then work on extending the total distance I can maintain that speed. The problem for me in the 400 is that I get tired too early (like 150-200m!). I guess my question goes to the point of periodization.

One of the questions I am asking myself as I enter this new world of MD running is, how much faster can I run without having dead legs...translated to mean, if I only run 40 miles a week will it help me feel/run faster? Another is: how much will doing some "strength work" improve my speed? If it does, what work should I do? And, the last one is: how much can I improve my speed if I actually do pace work below the mile pace workouts I've done in the past?

It ought to be an interesting experiment. What I was curious about, mainly, was the real speed work side of the program (100-800m workouts). Any thoughts?

[Dan]

That's a lot of questions!

[will]

"I don't believe you mentioned how old you are and what level of competition you are training for?"

I turn 26 tommorow, and, I've been running for 13 years. I'd like to try and make a move for a 2008 Trials bid, meaning, 3:40-2 for 1500m. I believe that a 5 year program can give me a reasonable shot at the level of competition. I've done 70-100 miles a week for about 8 years, constantly trying to become a 5/10k guy. I'm changing gears cause of exercise induced asthma. I figure, if I can hit the drills, weights, plyos, etc. I might make a move in the right direction. I'd like to run between 4:12-16 this year for the mile. All of my PR's (57, 2:03, 4:30) were literally run in workouts or time trials. The 57 was one of 3 repeats, all equally as fast. The 2:03 was a solo TT, the only one I did last year. With some training, I think I can go faster. I'm shooting for 1:56 this year. Not too big a leap. Only 7 seconds. I took that much off in one TT. The mile, however, is my monster. That's just a matter of time and consistent volume. I do think that 4:16 is reasonable. I ran 20x400@64 w/ 400 jog recovery last summer. I should have run at least 4:20 then, but, I was training for 5k and never did anything short or fast to get me ready for that sort of running.

I wrote:

Also, I'm thinking of doing the two Thursday workouts like this:

T1: 2wu + Plyo/Drills + 8-12*100 @ 800 date pace + 8*60 + 2wd
T2: 2wu + Plyo/Drills + 1*300 + 2*200 + 4*100 + 8*60 + 2wd

You wrote:

"That looks pretty good for separate days, but I think it might be overdoing the speed volume for daily doubles."

What I plan on doing is on one week, the T1 workout. The following week, the T2 run. Once I can master 58 second pace (1:56-800) for say 12-16*100, I think I can move to 150's or 200's. But, if I hear you correctly, you're saying start out with the longer intervals (2-300m) and build from there. Is that about right?

You then wrote:

"I would rather cut the volume a bit and make that first workout more true speed. 100's at 800 pace are more of a cruise interval, which won't do anything for speed development. You'd be better off doing half as many at a longer distance and working on speed endurance that way..."

I'm guessing that doing the 100's at more of a 400m race pace would be the way to go with speed development? The fellow from whom I got the general structure of this program said (for 800m runners) to start with 60's, then, hit 100's, and, build to 150's. When I talked to him, he said just pretty much double the distances (for 1500m-my avowed race) and go from their. I want to put a lot of energy on developing my speed from 100m up, not just 4-800m pace. So, I'm thinking I'll work on building max. sprint speed now, and, go from there.

You did write that you were doing 75m hill sprints a lot. How did that help?

You concluded by saying:

"How to build strength and improve speed? A detailed answer is very difficult to provide, as everyone will differ in what exercises work best for them. I like leg press, lunges, and bounding. As much as possible, I try to go with drills that simulate the running motion (i.e. stationary lunges seem silly). A good plyos routine will probably take 3 months to adapt to, so now is a good time to embark on that."

Yeah, I'm okay on the basics. I know what works for me; I've just got to do it! Biggest thing for me is blending the plyo and weights (which I've done) with the sprint training (which I haven't). It's that mixture I'm trying to find on top of maintaining my overall aerobic fitness and general strength.

[Dan]

[will]

Is there any volume you found best when doing speed work? 800m of 400m pace work? 2km for 800m? I heard that Kipketer does 20*200 @ 26 w/ 1:00R for the 800. That's wild. I can do 1 that fast! Of course, that's just like the 1500 guys doing 20*400 and so on.

Also, how did you structure your lifting relative to your running? An old coach of mine said do the lifting on your hard days, after you run, mainly cause it dovetails with the stress of the workout in terms of recovery. Yet, that seems counterintuitve to me. I'd think that the greater gains would come from an easy day strength session. Thoughts?

[Dan]

I like having the total of hard interval to be about double the race distance (for mid-distance events), so 4x400 at 800m race pace accomplishes the two goals of race specific pacing and proper amount of "mileage."

I agree with you that lifting on hard days isn't a great idea, at least not as a primary strength building workout. I preferred doing my hard lifting in the morning on off days, giving the most recovery time before the next hard run while still having time to recover from the previous hard day. My hard workouts were Tuesday-Thursday, with either an additional hard day or race on Saturday. Monday, Wednesday, and either Friday or Sunday were the hard weight days.

It may be just me, but I found it to be a complete waste of time trying to lift after running. You don't realize it until you stop moving, but running saps a lot of energy and leaves you feeling too loose and sloppy to summon enough energy for quality weight work.

Dan

[will]

Okay, so, I've got aerobic work, anaerobic work, sprints, drills, weights, plyos, theraband exercises, and, stretching. Any other cutting edge stuff I could toss into the mix to try and optimize my training?

Okay, so, back to the "speed work" question. I'm setting it up so that my workouts will progress this way:

Base 1.1:

T1: 12*100 @ 800 GP + 8*75 hill
T2: 12*60 @400 GP + 8*75 hill
T3: 300TT + 2*200 + 4*100 + 8*75 hill

Base 1.2:

T1: 15*100 @ 800 GP + 8*75 hill
T2: 15*60 @400 GP + 8*75 hill
T3: 400TT + 8*75 hill

Base 2.1:

T1: 10*150 @ 800 GP + 8*75 hill
T2: 10*80 @400 GP + 8*75 hill
T3: 300TT + 2*200 + 4*100 + 8*75 hill

Base 2.2:

T1: 6*200 @ 800 GP + 8*75 hill
T2: 6*100 @400 GP + 8*75 hill
T3: 400TT + 8*75 hill

Specific 1.1:

T1: 8*200 @ 800 GP + 8*75 hill
T2: 8*100 @400 GP + 8*75 hill
T3: 400TT + 8*75 hill

Specific 1.2:

T1: 10*200 @ 800 GP + 8*75 hill
T2: 10*100 @400 GP + 8*75 hill
T3: 400TT + 8*75 hill

That gets me through the next several weeks, but, when I get to wher eI can do 8*0.25 of the goal distance at pace, what would you folks suggest working on. Keep in mind I do a full set of drills and plyometrics beforehand.

[Dan]

To be honest, my eyes glaze over when I see a long list of abbreviations and shorthand conventions, especially with detailed, individualized training questions that I believe are pointless to answer not in person... Sorry, but I'm the wrong person to provide input on that sort of thing. If not for the speed component, it would be right up DG's alley, though.

Dan

[Distance_Guru]

I looked at the program you posted unfortunatly I can't be of all that much help since what your doing is very different from the system that I use. It's a lot easier to point out the flaws of a program that you know in great detail than it is to point out things in a program that you have only breifly seen and is based on different guiding principals than you'r own. That said the lack of long runs concerns me, the longest I saw on your original post was runs of 6-8 easy. My predisessor ran a system similar to the one described and yet still had long runs of up to 18 miles for his distance runners and 12 miles for his 800 guys. But with you using any sort of non-interval workout as a recovery day that has been preceeded by two days of intervals, running that far might not be wise. I guess the only recomendation I would have is once every other week or so instead of doing another interval workout, go for a good long run of 10-14 or so miles, giving yourself the next day off. Make sure to give yourself enough recovery with all those interval workouts packed together. Other than that the only thing I can really tell you is good luck.
_________________
Time is the fire in which we burn

[will]

Okay, and, thanks to both of you. Dan, I can understand how taxing it must be to answer a lot of questions, needless to say, redundant ones at that.

DG: about long runs. I understand (from what I can see) the logic of the type of programs you are coming from (Lydiard based or some variation thereof). I've trained under guys who were COACHED by Lydiard athletes. They were pretty much straight disciples.
As for the absence, I never really survived anything over 10 miles on long runs....even though I regularly ran up to 24 miles when I was doing 120 a week. It never did anything but make me tired and flat for days to come. My endurance base is naturally very high, however, with 12-3 years of mileage, I'm not too worried about my aerobic system. If anything, I'll throw in a few easy runs in the morning (20-45'). The long run will be upped to about 10 miles come next macrocycle.
You mentioned doing that much (6-8 miles) on a non-interval day might not be wise. That's a question I have too. I go by feel and my HR on that day. If I feel good, I go moderately hard, meaning 80% MHR. Other than that, I'll take it easy if my body says so. I look at the Thursday workout as being a "speed" day and feel that two different energy systems used on back to back days do not conflict. If anything, the soft tissue will be at risk. The usage of different energy systems is a central part of the principles I train by. It takes some times to get used to, but, it can be safely done. Igloi did that with his guys in LA.

[Dan]

[will]

I've read somewhere about CNS fatigue, mainly with sprinters though. I know from you have said, there is a difference between pace work (which is what the majority of my workouts are) and real, new stresses. For me, Drills, 400-800m pace days, and, Plyometrics are the only really new components to my training. The other work-wieghts, distance, etc.-are constant stress loads for me. To me, that means that Sundays and Thursdays are the days that would fall under that category. But, I am learning. That's why I am asking questions.

About the theory of CNS fatigue, how would you apply that to the Kenyans, Morrocans, and, other elite groups that generally train at high VO2 and heart rate levels on a daily basis, but, frequently demonstrate positive results? To me, they seem to handle the stresses well. The thing with them, though, is that they have been doing drills for years before reaching the visible level. I know the Ethiopians have a very lengthy general fitness "wamrup" and Morrocans do extensive drills....daily. Have they adapted to the learning curve earlier?

[Dan]