Run-Down Forums

[Justin]

Just a note...the London win was and still is the fastest marathon by a woman in a women-only race. The WR she just missed in London was set in 2001's Chicago (ie, mixed) race. So she holds 'both' world bests now, and they were the first two marathons of her career.

I can't think of anyone who won such major races on the country, road and track in one season before. Paul Tergat may have come close; perhaps a great runner like Ingrid Kristiansen did at her peak in the mid/late 80s. But even if so, it's unlikely the level of performance was quite so stellar.

I am immensely proud of Radcliffe - she's not just a great runner but an inspiraration through her sheer guts and hard work. Her training programme, attention to detail and meticulaous planning are incredible. And she's JUST SO DARN NICE! She is so modest, so pleasant, so friendly. It's a privilege to have her in the sport, a privilege to share a nationality with her.

She came to prominence 10 years ago, winning the WJ X-C champs, and has been plugging away with unfailing good grace and determination ever since. This season is the result of 10 years of never giving up and using each setback as a spur to train harder and harder. She's only 28 now, and has perhaps 3-4 more years to go at the top. Her sole aim now is Olympic gold, probably over the original Marathon course, in 2004. WC etc next year will be an intermediate goal, a stepping stone. This year is, I hope, just the start.

Justin

[Dan]

I can't think of any single seasons that Radcliffe's doesn't stack up well against. A few possible challengers would be FloJo's '88 and Wilson Kipketer's '97, but they stand more on the basis of quality than quantity (although pretty solid in the latter department, too).

I see Justin just hit on that topic a bit...

However, I'm unwilling to let one statement stand without at least commenting on it:

[Conway]

I agree that ElG's series of marks is better and therefore gives him an advantage over Sanchez ... Just wanted to ensure that with all the talk of undefeated seasons that we weren't talking about just one ... And as Justin stated, and what i have been getting at, is that a qualilty season is just that ... In spite of the occasional defeat ...

As far as KK is concerned ... Yes he did about half of what Paula did ... But then I don't think anyone has done what Paula did !!! So I Odon't t hink that should be held against him ... As for KK v ElG a pair of 2:05's in an event where if you race 3 times you may have over raced is phenomenal !!!

Paula ... As I said this weekend "Praise Paula" ... Her season is better than FloJo's infamous 1988 ... Better than the Chinese as what they did occured in single championship meets in 93/97 ... Better than Koch's 47.60 season ... Off the top of my head I can't think of anyone with as good a season ... Maybe Geb in one of his record seasons ... I htink he would come closest ...

Conway

[Distance_Guru]

[Dan]

Well shucks, if Bob Costas says it's so, then it must be so!!! He who lives in a glass house should not throw stones...

MJ also set the 200m WR prior to the Olympics on the same Atlanta track in '96, but Fredericks showed him to be not quite invincible during that summer. Not sure how that reflects on his overall season, though.

Dan

[Distance_Guru]

My opinion on the Chinese women has nothing to do with Bob Costas.

And I have yet to hear of any of the Chinese women demanding to be tested, releasing the results of their tests publiclly or asking to have their blood frozen for future examination.
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Time is the fire in which we burn

[Conway]

The Chinese .. MJ ... Paula Radcliff ... Hmm ... NOthing was ever proven about the Chinese ... Ma's "potion" was examined I believe and nothing was found .. Nothing illegal that is ... My positin on the Chinese is that I believe that they were tremendously aided by what ever it was that Ma gave them ... But that that in and of itself is NOT illegal ... There is so much that we do not know about Chinese history and their medicine in particular .... Herbs, roots and concoctions are standard fare ... Accupuncture, varoius forms of applied kinesiology are as well ... They did things thousadnds of years ago that doctors still can't explain ... So therefore it is consisdered taboo or impossible or given ohter negative connotations ... They did it in 93 ... disappeared and came back again in 97 ... Whtever they did ... It worked ... And goes back to my thread about importing people and trying to learn as opposed to immedaitely castigating them ...

MJ in 96 was not all conquering ... FRedericks had his number in general ... But he did have those great Atlanta races - trials and games ... But his season was not the equivalent of Paula's ... I'm thinkin GEb of 97/98 was running both 5k and 10k at those kind of levels but hadn't yet added the marathon ... Kristiansen maybe when she was dominating the track and marathon ... Kazankina back in the mid/late 70's over 800 and 1500 .. But cna't think of anyone with that kind of dominance AND range !!! MJ didn't have the range ...

Conway

[Dan]

[Distance_Guru]

I will admit that I'm biased against the Chinese athletes because of all the supposed potions they were on and from personal experence. We actually had a Chinese trainer or advisor or what ever you want to call her for about half a season when I was running in college. From what I remember coachd got rid of her for persisting in knowing what formulas (drugs, herbs what have you) he had us on. Appearently in China if your not having turtle blood soup, worm fungus and what not for breakfast your not really training. These two cases are obviously not enough to condem an enitre nations performances. However they are enough for me to form an opinion. Add that to the lack of times run by most of those same athletes to back up thier top times and things start to look mighty suspicious. That's on top of a notoriously closed government and society to outsiders, and an athletic system that is vertiually the same as the one used by eastern block countries which had rampant drug use from WWII until the late 80's early 90's. Where as Paula, as Justin has pointed out, has had 10 years of progression to get to the level she has achieved and has been more than open about what she is on and what her test results have been.
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Time is the fire in which we burn

[Justin]

Ma's army is difficult. The reasons put forward for suspecting they were cheating were as follows:

1. They are dirty cheating Chinese commies (paraphrased, but you get the idea). Simple ugly prejudice.

2. They came from nowhere. Well, only because (a) we'd never seen any Chinese effort to produce athletes before; (b) we know nothing about Chinese athletics so how would we hear of their rise?

3. They were all so young. Well, look at how they were ruthlessly selected, trained to breaking point (discarded if they broke) and then shunted on for the next ones; they were an experiment, a painful one. Not easy to survive that programme much past the teens.

4. They ran so much faster. Well, perhaps this just shows how stagnant had women's distance running become, how low the goals being set. 8:30 has been a world class 3k time for 25 years, at a time when the men's events have exploded and the women's events should have matured. It's amazing how the track world has pretended the Chinese times don't exist rather than thinking "hmmm...so how can I run 8:06?". Aim for 31 mins and you run that; aim for 30 (as Radcliffe did) and guess what...30 mins. I doubt anyone told Wang Junxia that 8:20 was a fast time.

If a US coach was given carte blanche to take any young teenager he wanted from their homes anywhere in the US, whether they wanted it or not and whatever their parents thought, and train them to be runners, brutally pushing them so 90% broke and were sent home as failures, how fast do you think the survivors would be? That's what Ma Jungren did, and he had a hitherto untapped 1/4 of the world's population to draw from, 4 or 5 times the size of the USA or Europe.

There is no good evidence that the Chinese cheated and even if they did the wrong lessons have been drawn...rather than play see no evil, hear no evil and pretend it never happened (like Johnson's 9.79) it should have been seen as a glimpse of a new horizon. It's taken Paula Radcliffe to drag the stagnant world of women's distance running towards that horizon.

Justin

[Dan]

Justin, very nicely summarized. I've always been suspicious of the Chinese system, being a Westerner and all, but I try to leave it as just that. Like Conway always says, whether or not everything was legit, an example has been given of what the human body can achieve. There's more than one way to get to any given point, so even if they did it with drugs, we at least know those times are humanly possibly and maybe can be arrived at in some other fashion.

One other item you didn't mention that bothers me the most is the fact that it was just the women who excelled, which sets off red flags of hormonal experimentation. I don't know if Ma worked with men (I think I remember reading that he said they would not be submissive enough or something), but that could explain it if not.

Dan

[Conway]

You're right Dan that is precisely how I believe ... People get all twisted about "drug use" ... I do not believe that there is a drug in the world that can make the body do somehting that it is not capable of doing !!! One may have ot train harder or longer ... OR differently ... But until there is a Martian or Saturian that comes down and obliterates all records, I believe any record out there can be challenged ... The only record I do not think can be challenged is the women's 100 ... And not because of drugs, but becasue that records was wind aided !! I was there and it was NOT still ... But that is a different topic for a different time ...

Paula challenged herself ... And in so doing has gone to a different level ... A level previously explored and one that she believed she too could go to ... THAT is all that it takes ... Simplistically of course ... There is the corresponding work that must be done ... But it has to start with belief ... AS much as I hated Tim's mouth earier this year, he did believe he could supplant Mo ... I think if you were to ask Dwain, this was the first year he believed he had a chance against the Americans ...

The mind is more powerful than any drug ... It is there that the landscape for improvement is made or not made !!! NOT in the lab ... Think about how many drug using athletes get beat every time out ... How many get thrashed ... If it were just drugs Mo and Tim would NOT be the only two individuals under 9.80 !!! There is still human spirit and will ... Technique and training ... Too many human factors involved ... Human spirit alwalys prevails ...

Conway

[coachd]

[Dan]

[coachd]

Yes, wang won the gold in Atlanta--but she is also one of the athletes that pulled a disapearing act after running 29:31...three years later she is back and claims gold (running a minute and a half slower)...the effects of training with drugs clearly (in the mind of most) gave her an unfair advantage in achieving her later results.

How are the banned athletes prior to the 2000 Olympic games seven years old?

And you are exactly right--the evidence I spoke about is "common knowledge", the reason it is common knowledge is because it was so prevalent and obvious. Can I point to a vial of blood or urine and say, "Wang" took drugs to achieve this result"...no. Can I identify her as an athlete within a program that has had people test positive for drugs, has had athletes suddenly become the best in the world and then disappear from the radar, as an athlete who herself has said she was forced to take "potions" and "herbs" as part of her training, as a part of a group that refused to be tested by the Chinese federation...YES. This all casts considerable doubt on the achievments of these athletes.

So, in the end, your answer is to give up trying to catch cheaters and clean up the sport? Yours is the simple view...mine is the noble.