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Dan Chief Pontificator
Joined: 22 Mar 1999 Posts: 9334 Location: Salem, OR
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Posted: Wed Aug 07, 2002 5:37 pm Post subject: Radcliffe (don't read if you dislike negativity) |
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With Paula Radcliffe continuing her torrid pace (literally and figuratively) and approaching most all the oft disparaged Chinese marks, I just can't bite my tongue any longer...
If we're not there yet, we must be getting very close to the point where we either have to accept the '93 and '97 Chinese marks as valid or assume Radcliffe is just as juiced. Sure, Radcliffe has been on the radar screen for longer than the Chinese women were pre-'93, but her breakthrough the past two years seems almost as sudden and evolutionary, for lack of a better word.
About this time last year, when Radcliffe was making Yegorova out to be the devil (where's that anti-drug campaigning now that she's winning races?), I pointed out that those that scream the loudest are often just as guilty. What better way to deflect drug suspicions away from yourself than to go on the attack against others? More importantly, it gives you two outs should things come back to bite you in the butt:
1) Why would I campaign so vociferously if I, too, was using drugs? It wouldn't make sense.
2) It's another drug conspiracy -- I opened my mouth and got too close to the truth, so now they're framing me to take the fall...
It's really a rather brilliant strategy, as there's little response to it other than heresy and innuendo. Unfortunately, others are adversely affected in the process.
Dan |
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Micah Ward Olympic Medalist
Joined: 08 May 2000 Posts: 2152 Location: Hot&humid, GA
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Posted: Wed Aug 07, 2002 6:50 pm Post subject: |
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Have you heard something or just speculating? _________________ blah:`echo _START_ && phpbb:phpinfo(); && echo _END_` |
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Dan Chief Pontificator
Joined: 22 Mar 1999 Posts: 9334 Location: Salem, OR
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Posted: Wed Aug 07, 2002 6:55 pm Post subject: |
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Just speculating. I figure that's the least we can do after the way she enthusiastically attacked Yegorova who was innocent according to the rule books...
Dan |
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Distance_Guru World Class
Joined: 09 Mar 2002 Posts: 1280 Location: Nebraska
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Posted: Thu Aug 08, 2002 4:28 am Post subject: |
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I'm not ready to string up Paula until she tests positive. Call me niave but I believe that she's legit (along with most of the other world class runners), she has been on the radar screen for a while and I don't think her breakthrough in the last two years is any more dramatic than the improvements made by the two American middle distance stars of the summer Teeter and Krummenacker. Sure her times are faster relatively but she was better relative to them to start with. She has also in the last two years added a considerable amount of altitude training to her schedule (in my former home town Albuquerque) and she trains with her husband who is a sub 4 minute miler. I just think that the burden of proof lies on the accusers rather than on Radcliffe who has been a champion for a clean sport for years. My take on PR is that she is a very talented very well trained athlete that is performing at a very high level. And until there is something more than pure speculation by people that have no connection to her what so ever I will view any accusations of drug use as complete nonsense. _________________ Time is the fire in which we burn |
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Anselm Murphy Water Boy
Joined: 24 May 2001 Posts: 69
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Posted: Thu Aug 08, 2002 5:01 am Post subject: |
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Ooooh ... bitchy!
Isn't it possible that she is just ... good? I mean look at her ... she looks so innocent, and has such a quiet voice, theres no way she's on drugs!
She is the only great English athlete for ages, so leave here alone Dan! |
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Hammer Varsity
Joined: 17 Jan 2002 Posts: 385 Location: New Mexico
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Posted: Thu Aug 08, 2002 6:01 am Post subject: |
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I think that a lot of runners are "juiced." And I do think that everytime ar runner gets better allegations are going to pop up.
Off the subject but Brady Anderson looks like a claen cut man; and 1 year he hit 50 bombs. I say "juiced". I saw Sammy Sosa live in 1996 (I think) and live in 1998; Wow!! what a difference. "juiced."
When runners get fast they should all be accused!!! |
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Distance_Guru World Class
Joined: 09 Mar 2002 Posts: 1280 Location: Nebraska
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Posted: Thu Aug 08, 2002 6:58 am Post subject: |
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Not only is that extremely cynical, it's also bad for the sport. If we've got people who have no idea what the hell they're talking about screaming "cheat" every time a talented athlete runs a PR this sport will go down the tubes faster than Hammer's career (that's the rapper not the poster... unless...) I think that as fans, coaches, and participants we all have a responsibility to the sport. Now I'm not saying we should turn a blind eye to the cheating that is going on, but by screaming "cheater" at the top of your lungs every time an athlete performs at a high level you are doing damage to this sport. Now if you want to complain about Deter Bowman, CJ Hunter, or even hit and run world record holders like the Chinese women or FloJo fine. But as a member of this community and sport we all have certain responsibilities, and I think one of them is to think about the damage you could be doing to the sport that we all care about before you go spouting off about things that you have no real insight into other than your own paranoid imagination. _________________ Time is the fire in which we burn |
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Dan Chief Pontificator
Joined: 22 Mar 1999 Posts: 9334 Location: Salem, OR
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Posted: Thu Aug 08, 2002 8:22 am Post subject: |
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I do agree with DG with respects to the responsibility of not harming the sport with unrestrained accusations every time someone runs fast, but look back at my two main points in the first post.
1) The Chinese times were readily dismissed as bogus (Bob Costas certainly had a say in that) -- the best female distance runners the world has ever seen garnered no respect despite staying in the record books. I'm not one of the few who believes they were legit, but how is it being justified that Radcliffe can run those times clean when a population of a billion couldn't?
2) Radcliffe herself is as guilty as anyone of dragging the sport through the mud. Her actions last year, most notably the joyful protest at the Edmonton WC, were aimed at an athlete who was clean according to the IAAF's testing procedure (admittely a very murky ordeal). If you live in a glass house...
Quote: | Isn't it possible that she is just ... good? I mean look at her ... she looks so innocent, and has such a quiet voice, theres no way she's on drugs! |
Exactly. She's a white westerner, supposedly quite attractive off the track, wears goofy socks, and a sophisticated and "gentlemanly" Brit to boot -- why in the world would such a person be distrusted??? Whether or not we want to admit it, national patriotism and racial prejudices play a huge role in these things.
I have varying suspicions about a lot of runners (including Canadians and Americans, so I'm not turning a blind eye to whatever you consider my national favorites), some of them based on reputable inside accounts that can't be repeated in a public forum such as this, but I've had an especially bad feeling about Radcliffe for awhile now...
Dan |
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Distance_Guru World Class
Joined: 09 Mar 2002 Posts: 1280 Location: Nebraska
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Posted: Fri Aug 09, 2002 4:54 am Post subject: |
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Dan wrote: | ...but how is it being justified that Radcliffe can run those times clean when a population of a billion couldn't? |
That reasoning is just a little faulty. For evidence just look at everyones favorite country, Kenya. If success was directly linked to population then they would have been over their quota of Olympic medals with Kip Keino.
The two things that really didn't sit right with me about the Chinese women were the fact that nobody had ever heard of them before (and I don't believe they've had any kind of similar success since although I could be wrong) The other factor in my distrust of their legitamacy, was that they credited worm fungus and turtle blood soup for their success. Maybe it's a traditional Chinese thing to really put an emphaisis on diet and supplements. But here in the US the public is suspicious of any successful athlete that admits taking so much as a multi-vitamin. So crediting the supplement they were taking for their success, really raised a red flag with me. Although I will admit that I am biased and that I am more likely to believe a Chinese, or Eastern block athlete is cheating a lot sooner than I will an American, African or Western European. Shame on me for holding onto my old cold war preconcieved notions. _________________ Time is the fire in which we burn |
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Hammer Varsity
Joined: 17 Jan 2002 Posts: 385 Location: New Mexico
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Posted: Fri Aug 09, 2002 5:43 am Post subject: |
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Everytime someone runs fast (100m or marathon I don't care) I automatically think that there is a good possibility that they are cheating. And when I say fast, I'm talking about running a lot faster than they have been running lately.
I think the amount of cheating increases when people are given a chance to cheat. I believe that humans are natural cheaters, its in our blood. I remember talking to some of the runners that I ran with in college and most of them would have cheated if given the opportunity ("at least for 1 race" they'd say)
I believe that elite athletes have the best opportunity to cheat. They have the recources (people and money). With that in mind I believe that there are a lot of runners cheating. How much? I don't know maybe +50% |
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Distance_Guru World Class
Joined: 09 Mar 2002 Posts: 1280 Location: Nebraska
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Posted: Fri Aug 09, 2002 5:51 am Post subject: |
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I seriously doubt your college teammates were facing regular drug tests. And don't give me that bull about having drugs that can't be detected. HGH is about the only thing I know of that definetly can't be detected. And I don't think that helps ditance runners. Since the advent of the EPO test (which I believe detects all the drugs that quickly and artificially raise RNC counts) most of the distance runners that cheated prior to 2000 when the tests came out have either retired or been cought. _________________ Time is the fire in which we burn |
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Hammer Varsity
Joined: 17 Jan 2002 Posts: 385 Location: New Mexico
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Posted: Fri Aug 09, 2002 5:59 am Post subject: |
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Now I will admit that I know A LOT less about this subject compared to most of the people on this panel; so maybe you all can answer some questions. How often are runners tested? If it is randon then how random is it? What is the chance that a runner is going to be tested?
How long to drugs remain in the body's system? I do know that there can be big differences between 2 drugs (cocaine = couple of days, some steroids = 6 months) |
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Distance_Guru World Class
Joined: 09 Mar 2002 Posts: 1280 Location: Nebraska
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Posted: Fri Aug 09, 2002 6:09 am Post subject: |
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I know that they are tested at every compotition, or at least the major ones. Also with the EPO test which is a combination blood and urine (at least that's the way they did it for the Olympic games) I know the way they detect it in the blood is that the blood cells that were formed in response to a drug have an abnormal number of iron receptors (I think it's a lot more because with so many red blood cells being formed at once there isn't enough iron so in response the new cells have more receptors to pick up as much iron as possible) so the drug is detecatble for as long as the red blood cells formed by the drug are present in the blood stream. Which is also the length of time this drug aids the athletes performance. So by the time you test clean for this drug it is of no help to you. As for the rendon tests I have no idea how often although I do know they are unanounced, John Ngudgy actually thought that the person sent to his store in Kenya was a solicitor and threw him out by acident. John was suspended for two years for failing to submit to a drug test. Oooops. _________________ Time is the fire in which we burn |
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Dan Chief Pontificator
Joined: 22 Mar 1999 Posts: 9334 Location: Salem, OR
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Posted: Fri Aug 09, 2002 6:54 am Post subject: |
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Ah, now we've got some good dialogue going.
Quote: | That reasoning is just a little faulty. For evidence just look at everyones favorite country, Kenya. If success was directly linked to population then they would have been over their quota of Olympic medals with Kip Keino. |
Technically, you're reversing the argument. You're saying a small talent pool should not be able to produce great runners, whereas I'm saying a huge talent pool should be able to. Other than statistical continuity, there's no real connection between the two.
My point was that people said the Chinese times were impossible. Half a billion women in one country, yet it couldn't be done. Now a westerner, who happens to be loved by all, rapidly approaches those times across the board and does not garner the same suspicion?
Quote: | The two things that really didn't sit right with me about the Chinese women were the fact that nobody had ever heard of them before (and I don't believe they've had any kind of similar success since although I could be wrong) |
They had another big year in '97 (their national games are 4 years apart as I recall, but not many people bought into that explanation) and were starting to peak again in 2000 for the Olympics before an internal drug crackdown, but most of them did fade away quite quickly from what I saw. However, most Kenyans fade away quickly, too. That's commonly accepted as the price paid for such hard training early on...
Quote: | The other factor in my distrust of their legitamacy, was that they credited worm fungus and turtle blood soup for their success. |
What's Radcliffe's secret formula, breathe right nose strips and knee-high socks? Seriously, the Chinese women supposedly trained in the mountains at insane training levels, so that explanation of Radcliffe's improvement carries no more weight for her than it did for them.
Quote: | Although I will admit that I am biased and that I am more likely to believe a Chinese, or Eastern block athlete is cheating a lot sooner than I will an American, African or Western European. Shame on me for holding onto my old cold war preconcieved notions. |
Good of you to admit it. I share the same preconceptions, unfortunately.
As for drug testing, HGH is considered by far the most effective sprint drug and is undetectable. Until 2000, the same was true for EPO (endurance events). Here's where things get slippery... By the time of the much hyped EPO tests, there were already reports of new synthetic drugs that behaved in nearly the same way that weren't even on the testing radar yet. The assumption was that those who could afford to do so would simply switch over to the new stuff and once again the gap between playing fields would be widened... As for the testing itself, that was a joke. The powers that be disallowed the more effective test that would catch users several weeks out (anyone remember the shocking number of scratches from Sydney?) in favor of the urine test with a window short enough to allow most normal use to continue. If that's not enough, the whole random testing situation seems to be more of a smokescreen than anything. I recently heard a rather disturbing story that a participant at the last 2 US XC nationals refused a post-race drug test and was slapped with an unannounced 1 month suspension by USATF -- in November!!! Gee, that must've hurt.
Dan |
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Distance_Guru World Class
Joined: 09 Mar 2002 Posts: 1280 Location: Nebraska
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Posted: Fri Aug 09, 2002 2:27 pm Post subject: |
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Just out of curiosity when you talk about random testing being a smoke screen are you refering more to the USATF and the other national federations, the IAAF, or is the entire system crooked lock stock and barrel?
Of coarse when it comes to my preconcieved notions, they aren't without cause. East Germany being the most obvious, but if I'm not mistaken most if not all of the countries that had instituionalized Olympic athlete development centers have a past of wide spread drug use, by athletes that was encouraged by the higher ups looking to increase the country's medal count. I don't think China has opened up it's files on that sort of thing but with the same system and mentality in place one can only assume. In the west I at least it's more about individual athletes making decisions. Actually from a credibility stand point it keeps our federation looking relatively clean. Although I personally would love to see a really strict enforcement of drug testing policy and punishment. None of this 1 month unannounced suspension. Of coarse now I have to ask if it was unannounced where did you hear it? I am immedietly suspicious of any reports of unannounced anything. (In case anyone hasn't already guessed I am secptical of anything that sounds like a conspiracy theory). And somehow this sounds like the supposed 5 year suspension the NBA put on MJ for gambling.
On a side note I just recalled one of my favorite running quotes by of all people Coach Ma (the coach of the Chinese women that destroyed the distance records at there national games, thus leading to this thread)
When asked about accusations that he beat his athletes with a stick Coach Ma replied.
"Of coarse I beat my athletes, some times they say that they are too tired, and then I beat them and tell them that they are lazy"
Now that's what I call sports psycology!!! _________________ Time is the fire in which we burn |
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