Run-Down Forums

[Anselm Murphy]

Hi, I was wondering when you are in a 1500m race, should you try to keep the laps at similar speeds? I tend to automatically do a quick first lap, then get progressively worse. Suppose I want to run it in 4:35 (my new goal), is it best to aim for 3 laps of about 1:12, then the last 300m in about 1 min? Or should I aim for something like 1:05, 1:10, 1:20, 1 min?
I've only ever run the 1500m in a real race once, as I just can't push myself when its only training.
When I ran that race in 4:49, the first lap was 1:02 (broke my 400 time!), then 1:28, then I don't know what the 3rd was, must have been around 1:22, and the last 300 I'm not sure - maybe around 55 as I sprinted the last 100.
These seem pretty crazy timings to me.
Whaddaya think Dan?

[training2run]

It has always been my policy to begin a bit under pace, and speed up throughout a race.

Psychologically, this is very difficult for some people to do. But, you may get a tremendous boost near then end, when you whiz past the others who are cratering. Mike www.training2run.com

[graeme]

Unless I'm having a bad race I usually run about the same pace for the first 3 laps and then hammer the last 300m. For example, when I ran my PB of 4:30 I did the first 3 laps in around 1:13. My time was 3:40 with 300m left so I sped up and ran the rest of the race in 50 seconds. That's just what works for me though because my best part is the finish.

I think the most important thing is that you don't taper off in the middle of the race (usually means not running the first lap super fast). I once ran a 1:07 first lap in a 4:51 race, but I've never done a 1:02 in the 1500

[training2run]

[quote="graeme"]I think the most important thing is that you don't taper off in the middle of the race (usually means not running the first lap super fast).quote]

Those are real words of wisdom, but something that very few runners seem to learn, or perhaps, even believe.

I believe in it so much, I even train to that end. All my runs, no matter how long and difficult, finish with a stretch much faster than the rest of the run: when I'm the most tired, I work the hardest! Mike www.training2run.com

[Distance_Guru]

The conventional wisdom when aiming for a good 1500 time is to run as evenly as possible throughout the race. There is nothing wrong with trying to run the last 300 faster, although I never plan on it. The one thing you don't want to do is to use all of your energy by running to hard early. Remember, if you start to slow you can always speed up, but if you start to fast all you can do is slow down.
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Time is the fire in which we burn

[Anselm Murphy]

That was my first 1500 race, and I was really eager to do well so ran off as fast as I could. The teacher said they thought I didn't know what the distance was! If I sort this out so I'm doing the laps more evenly, will I be able to run it faster? Or does it all even out in the end?
Right now for my training I run 5 laps of a circuit which is roughly 550m long. I'm trying to get it so that my last lap is always one of the fastest. For example, I take 2mins as the standard time for a lap, but always do the first and last laps quicker. Today I did 1:46, 1:57, 2:00, 2:01, 1:45
to give me a time of 9:29, which is good for me.
Is this a good way of simulating race? I always do a fast 1st lap no matter what, but here I've managed to keep the rest of the laps fairly even, with enough left for a fast final lap.

[Distance_Guru]

What you want is to be a little more even in your training. If your going to run around 9:29 you want to run 1:54 for your first 4 laps and then go as fast a possible for the final lap. Also that slowing of your splits in the middle is something you want to avoid. Perfectly even splits should be your goal, both in training and racing.
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Time is the fire in which we burn

[Hammer]

I agree with everthing that has been advised to this point but.... I have often found that working toward an ideal or perfect pace can result in less that optimal results. I have run some of my best times in races when I have gone out a LITTLE fast (2sec./lap) and then found that I can keep that pace for the remainder of the race. And I believe that some of the biggest mistakes I have made as a coach is preaching pace.

A friend of mine advised me to train the system of the body instead of the race. I believe in that advise and use it about 80% of the time.

[training2run]

If you could hold the pace for the rest of the race, then you didn't go out too fast.

[Distance_Guru]

I'd have to agree with that. Also I've never seen an athlete forced into a bad race by sticking to a pace, on the track. I have however seen it on the cross country coarse.

But I do think that it is important to train the physiological system in training as opposed to just running race pace without thought to what you're actually training. However by controlling the length of the interval and the duration of the rest it is pretty easy to match the need to train a certain physiological system and still run a workout with a pace near what you will be racing. Although this is easiest to do for race distances between 3000 and 10,000 meters.
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Time is the fire in which we burn

[Hammer]

Sticking to a pace that you have trained for in practice will produce a consistant result. But it may also produce a less than optimal result. Runners usually never find out how fast they are until they find themselves in a big race and they are forced to push the pace earlier then they ususlly do. They run 2-3 sec./lap (sometimes faster) in the first half of the race and then find out that they can keep the pace for the rest of the race.

I think that athletes who spend too much time working on pace end up working on the wrong pace.

[Distance_Guru]

I've couldn't disagree with you more. Athletes that work on running a pace are (or at least should be) training at a pace that is at the edge of what they are capable of for the race distance that season. In other words most pace based systems for both racing and training are design towards a goal pace. Which is usually pretty ambitious. In other words the splits that they are trying to hit for the duration of the race is the best pace that there is any hope of them running that year.

The ideas that you have to get out hard is contrivesial, in cross country. It is a tactic that because of the terrain and the number of runners in cross country races, I beleive, can be used effectively. On the track going out to hard is a sin that is paid for dearly. Now maybe in Jr High or even High School on occasion athletes all of a sudden "discover" that they are actually 2-3 seconds per lap faster than they thought they were. But at least on the college level it doesn't happen.
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Time is the fire in which we burn

[Dan]

Hey Hammer, I actually agree with you!

I do believe the goal in any 1500 should be fairly even pacing, but that should be the end result more than the means to the end. What I mean is that shooting for even pacing will almost always lead to running not quite at maximum effort up until the kick, at which point it pretty much comes down to guts regardless (barring extreme overly ambitious pacing early) and is difficult to make up for what was pissed away earlier.

The thing to avoid, as has been mentioned above, is lap splits spiraling upward time-wise after the first lap. That is best accomplished by training for a consistent pace, as opposed to racing at it. Kind of a blurry definition, I admit...

There are a few exceptions, but most high level 1500's and miles I've seen have a faster first and last lap, with the 2nd and 3rd laps being a couple of seconds slower and fairly equaly to each other. It makes sense from the standpoint of 10 sec./1 min. energy systems (first lap) and nothing left to hold out for (last lap).

Dan

[Hammer]

DG- With pace base systems setting pretty ambitious goals; doesn't that usually set the runner up for failure??? If a runner is working toward a goal pace most of the workouts will result in failure because they will not reach the goal. If they do reach the goal then the end of the season goal needs to be adjusted and the runner needs to go through another set of weeks to attain that goal. This is all considering that the recovery interval remains constant (heart rate retering to 120/min. as an example)

[Distance_Guru]

I guess I should define what I ment when I was refering to goal pace. Goal pace isn't the goal pace for the first meet of the year or a dual meet in the middle of the season. The goal pace when it comes to training is the pace that you feel the athlete can run in a big late season race with good conditions and compotition. Each race will have a goal pace and that pace will be based on what the athlete is capable of running that day. If an athletes seasonal goal pace is 60.0 per 400 for 1500, you wouldn't instruct your athlete to do that the first race of the outdoor season. The goal pace for that race might be 61 and change. A pace that they will have also seen in practice although not with the regularity of the seasonal goal pace. The idea is to get the athlete to feel running even splits, and to get into that habbit. So that when the real races happen they are prepared. And I will never intentionally set an athlete up to fail, but all athlete will fail at one time or another, by teaching them to run even splits I think that the chances of them having a catistrofic failure are much less than if athletes are tought to race kamakazi style by going you at a pace that they aren't capable of maintaining. Which usually results in a horrible fall off during the second half of the race.
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Time is the fire in which we burn