Run-Down Forums

[Conway]

But as Paul said when you run the numbers it appears to be as much a race indicator as anything ... I know the Purdy's have been around since at least the 80' and it is possible perhapas sometime ate 70's ... They are a wonderful guage and when melded into this workout a potential predictor ... Or at least so it would seem ...

Conway

[Distance_Guru]

I would agree that the workout is a great race indicator for marathon, when your training for a marathon. But it is also a pretty good VO2 max workout for any distance.

My college coach used Purdy's point system to predict race performances based on how you ran your workouts during the past week. In my four years of running for him I think he was only off by more than 10 seconds two or three times.

Also there is a second edition of Purdy's Running Trax out now. It's one of the top items on my "Running stuff to buy" list.
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[Paul]

Micah, my point in item 2 is that Yasso's 800 time is simply a 10K pace interval workout, based on the 10K conversion from the Purdy tables. I know that sounds rather convoluted.

Taking DG's example, a 2:30 800m is the pace for a 31:15 10K. A 2:35 800m is the pace for a 32:17.5 10K. So the 10 x 800m early season workout becomes half mile intervals roughly at 10K pace. The key, verified by DG's response post, is the rest interval. The workout becomes substantial from the point that the body is not allowed to recover fully between runs, especially toward the last half of the workout, and that this is the first time the body has been exposed to this type of work in the season.

Taking 30 secs off your 800 is quite a chunk to bite off to begin with. Lets take an example and say a person can run a 50 minute 10K, that's 2 minutes per 400 pace. A 3:45 800m would be faster than 5K pace. a 3:30 800m would be so fast that the recovery between runs would have to be substantial. I would imagine a heart rate at 95% plus.

The basic Yasso 800 workout is 10 x 800 with the same time as a rest period. This is why I likened it to a controlled fartlek run on the track, the running interval (covering 800m) time and the rest interval time are the same. Using the above example, that makes it an 80 minute workout, which is a good conditioning workout. Bart Yasso's opinion is that, all things being equal, if you want to run, say, a 3 hour marathon, and you can get your 10 x 800 workout down to 3:00 per 800 with a 3 minute jog between, then you should have a good shot at running 3 hours.

I think this answers most but not all the questions. Because the original question on how to incorporate 800's into a 10K preparation schedule is a question best answered by DG and Dan.

My original Computerized Running Training by Gardner and Purdy is dated 1970. I'm sure I bought it before I went in the military in 1971. I am obviously in need of an updated copy myself!!

Paul

[Hammer]

Correct me if I am wrong but I thought that the 10X800 marathon predicting workout had a 1 min rest interval for a runner who averaged 3:00/800m. I was under the impression that the rest was to equal about 1/3 of the interval time.

[Distance_Guru]

Hammer!!!

So I see you survived... As far as I know the rest is 1:1 ratio or at least that's what this particular article said.
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[Paul]

Hammer, DG: That's the impression I got from the various places I have seen the Yasso 800's written up. Same recovery period, timewise. When you figure a short warmup and warmdown, then the workout becomes quite extensive, timewise.

DG, do you have any further thoughts on my latest post, here??

Paul

[Distance_Guru]

I think you pretty much hit the nail on the head with your assesment.

It makes me wonder why you don't get more involved in some of the more, spirited, debates that we have around here from time to time. You obviously have done a pretty good amount of reading on the subject. Something I really respect.
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Time is the fire in which we burn

[Micah Ward]

Paul is sandbagging!

He pretends to be down on the same intellectual level as me. But he may actually be up there on Conway's level. He is just waiting and bidding his time and when we least expect it he will drop a bombshell that will stun all of us.

Thank goodness he isn't in the Fantasy League this year. He could really embaress us.
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[Hammer]

I hate 800s for 10k training personally. Maybe that's why I only alow 1min. recovery between intervals. If you do 10X800m with equal rest you end up running laps on the track for an hour (if you run the intervals in 3:00) Where as if you run 6X1600m w/3min. recovery, you are running for about 54min. and the interval is closer to the race distance and probably have better results.

[Micah Ward]

Sounds like a reasonable idea. If I did the math right the 1600's would be run in 6 minutes each. What is 10K race pace off of that training?
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[Distance_Guru]

I run a workout almost exactly like that every other week during cross country season for my men's team. The way we do this workout is they run it at around 8k pace. There are two reasons for this, first it is faster than 10k pace although not by a lot. This allows them to maintain the pace throughtout the workout and they end up running faster than 10k pace for almost 10k. And the other reason is more of a coincedence than anything else, most of our regular season races are 8k so I don't have to do much guess work or math to come up with the goal times.

So to answer your question the 10k time for a runner doing this workout at least in my system would be right around 38 minutes
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Time is the fire in which we burn

[Paul]

DG: How much does your men's training vary from the women's training??

Paul

[Distance_Guru]

In terms of philosophy very little. While the men are doing there 6x1600 every other week the women will be doing 6x1000 meters (getting ready for there 6000 meter race distance). Although sometimes there will be difference based on the team needs. If the ladies apear to be lacking a little strength then we'll run some extra hills. But generally the only real difference is that the mileage for the girls is a little lower than for the men and that the key workouts are geared for 6000 meters as opposed to 10,000 for the men. And really my women's team last year almost out did my men's program in terms of volume outside of interval workouts. Simply because entering the year they were in better condition and probably more talented than my men's squad. The biggest differences are about as likely to occur between two members of each team than between the teams themselves. With the differing talent, fittness and toughness levels of my athletes, if I was to earase the name from the top of the workout it wouldn't be really easy to tell wheather it was a member of my men's or women's team running the workout. Although the guys are still faster.
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[Dan]

The Purdy Tables appear to have been first printed in 1970, for what it's worth. Doh, I see Paul already pointed that out!

I think your assessment(s) pretty much covered all the bases. It does appear that Yasso's thingie is a tidy little predictor conveniently backed by quantitatively defined numbers in nicely symmetric fashion. There, how's that for a summary?!

Dan

[Indeurr]

Would 10x100m work as well for 5K as 10x800m for circa 40k?

For instance: each 100m in 18s would predict 18 minutes.