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Conway
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 22, 2002 10:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you are born here you have US citizenship .. As far as immigrants go would depend on when you came ... If you are an adult I would not consider that you were "trained" here .. If you came as a kid then obviously you know no different than any other country or trianing method .. At least that is my simple reasoning ...
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Dan
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 22, 2002 7:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't see Meb and Abdi as being remotely American from a running standpoint, even if they got much of their schooling here and speak fluent English.

I mostly agree with Conway's position, but even early childhood immigrants don't seem to be citizens in the athletics sense to me. I wouldn't really consider Ben Johnson or Donovan Bailey to be Canadian, even though I believe they moved from Jamaica quite early on. Of course, several million people would disagree with me on that particular statement... Smile

Dan
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Conway
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 22, 2002 8:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree in principle but it is so hard to figure out where to draw the line with respect to the youngsters .. A very tough call .. I have to think on that one a little bit ...
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Micah Ward
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 23, 2002 3:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Having said what I said about KK, I have to clarify that I would rather see an American born runner at the top. But it has been so long since the days of Bill Rodgers and Frank Shorter that I guess I will take the next best thing for the time being.

Looking back at the most recent winter Olympics, I saw several guys win medals for countries that they had only been citizens of for a few years. Yeah, it did look strange.
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Distance_Guru
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 23, 2002 5:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Okay, so three of the best Americans today aren't Americans. What about one of the best Americans of all time. Steve Prefountaine, his mother was from Germany, he grew up in a German speaking household. So essintially he is very much the same as Abdi and Meb, should we think of Pre as a non-American, American too?

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Dan
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 23, 2002 10:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was thinking before my last post that there's an ugly side to this (I admit to the same perceptions) -- we basically feel anyone that isn't white or isn't of West African decent (and several generations American) is a foreigner in the athletic sense. Therefore, Pre is not perceived as foreign despite his parent's background.

I'm not quite sure what to make of all that. Sad The best spin I can put on it is that it lends a great deal of credence to the notion that the Olympics and WC should be a representation of the best athletes, not of nations.

Dan
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 23, 2002 2:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:

On 2002-04-23 14:27, Dan wrote:
I'm not quite sure what to make of all that. Sad The best spin I can put on it is that it lends a great deal of credence to the notion that the Olympics and WC should be a representation of the best athletes, not of nations.

Dan



That's an interesting thought although I wouldn't hold your breath. Anything that would make it harder to get Americans (whatever kind) into the WC's much less the Games would never fly. Not so long as there is corporate sponsorship. Even as slow as American distance runners are people will buy a lot more gatorade if it's being endorsed by Alan Webb (once he's out of college anyway) than they will from Noah Ngeny no matter how much slower Webb is.

Of coarse on the flip side the US would probably end up with a net gain since we could probably quailify 7 or 8 athletes in the sprints, hurdles, ect.

I guess I just always look at things from a distance point of veiw first.

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Micah Ward
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 24, 2002 3:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

We are weaving a tangled web guys. Of course anyone born in the US is an American regardless of where their parents are from. So Pre is American, period. KK comes here looking for opportunities he can't have in Morroco and goes through the legal requirements to become a citizen and swears allegiance to the United States. In my book he is now American, period.

However...at the risk of sounding jingoistic or xenophobic I would like to see a native born American setting world marathon records. And quite honestly I am not proud of feeling that way. I never had to take classes to become a citizen like KK did. And the only time I have had to swear allegiance to the US was my military enlistment and my law enforcement swearing in.

I guess the point I am trying to make is that KK worked to get something that we have simply because of the place we were born. So I admire him for it and wish him the best.
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 25, 2002 8:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Getting back to something I asked earlier, what does everyone else feel is the direction that American distance running particularly on the male side, is taking. I think things are looking up. Meb set the 10k record last year, Goucher is finally healthy and looking to have a good summer of racing across the pond. While back here in the states you have two runners that are the first athletes that look capable of breaking Steve Scotts mile record down the road, in Webb and Jennings. And Ritz who very nearly broke Pre's 5k record last year in high school. In Webb we finally have the heir to Scott and Ryan, and in Ritz we have a possible heir to Pre. I am well aware that those are huge comparisons to make but if you look around these two young runners are comparable at their age to those greats. The question of coarse then becomes, will these athletes have the same level of success on a world stage as those that have come before them. Only time will tell as far as that is concerned but at least it looks like American distance running may be finally moving out of the dark ages.

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Conway
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 25, 2002 11:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have cautious optimism .. I do think things are looking better .. NO doubt about that .. But then look at where we are / have been .. When you are looking up from the bottom everything looks good ..

Webb and Ritz I agree are the real deal .. Only problem is that the world has progressed since the days of Ryun and Pre .. Menaing that is was easier for those guys to compete on the world scene at the level that Webb and Ritz are at now .. Webb will have ota break 3:50 and 3:30 in order to just feel like he can be competitive !! Ritz wil have to be around 13:15 or better .. Not that they can't get there, but they are stil a ways off .. So the next question is how long will it take ..

Goucher I think is close .. Knocking on the door .. This season will tell if he gets in or not .. Kenedy is aging and has had the injury problems .. So we will see ..

I'm not sold on Meb yet .. Did nothing to back up last years record performance ..

Having said all that I think we are pointed in the right direction .. Can we get there before the bar is raised much higher ?? I don't know .. Sad

I'm
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Micah Ward
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 26, 2002 8:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I join Conway with the cautious optimism. There is an interesting article about Webb in the May Running Times. The Michigan coach made the comment that he is training Webb not just to represent Michigan but to represent the US too. So the pressure is on Webb. It also described a workout they do that is called "The Michigan". Webb ran it faster than any runner ever.

I think this year is the key for Goucher. This is finally his time to emerge. As for Ritz, Webb, Tegenkamp, etc we just need to be patient and let them progress and evolve to their late 20's and hopefully US distance runners can compete with the best.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 29, 2002 7:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Something MW said got me thinking. (A very rare thing). I've always wondered why it is that Americans and European athletes have to wait until they're in their late 20's to run at their very best, while east Africans tend to show up at the top of the world list in their late teens and often disapear in their mid 20's, just when logic says they should be starting to run their very best. I have always thought that it was all the aerobic exposure the Africans got at an early age and the fact that buy their mid 20's these Africans had made enough money to retire. While Americans and Europeans have to wait until later in life to accumulate enough aerobic exposure to run at their peak.
I have been wondering lately if this was a disadvantage for us or for the Africans. With an athlete running their best in their late 20's they are more mature mentally and probably are better "racers". On the down side if you have to wait until your late 20's it leaves more opporunities for serious injury or life to derail you on your path to success. If you come into your prime earlier, you are less experienced and may be at a mental disadvantage compared to more mature athletes. On the other hand you also may not know what you're not supposed to be able to do and that can often be a good thing. Also the younger you are when you come into your prime the less chance you will have for things to get in your way. Just curious to find out what everyone else thought about the age difference between our athletes and those from other countries.


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Micah Ward
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 29, 2002 4:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I had never thought about it from that angle. I just took it on faith that distance runners did not peak until late 20's. But you do bring up a good point about the Africans. If those guys who are on top of the world at 20-23 kept going until 30 would they get even faster?

The point you make about life in the west derailing runners before they get to their peak made me think of Bob Kempanen. Remember him? America's best marathoner in what...the early 90's? Just as he gets to his peak he quites to go to med school. And even before him Tony Sandovol fit the same description. Both made Olympic teams in their early 20's then promptly quick for med school. Now maybe if I was smart enough for med school I would do the same but it does make me wonder about a world class runner who gives it up just as he starts his peak years.
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Dan
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 30, 2002 6:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If we justify national representation based on how deservedly an athlete wants in or whatever, I just don't see any value in rooting for a country. The NFL completely lost my interested when free agency got to the point where a team had a completely new roster every other year -- nothing to identify with. I really do not want to see that in track & field...

I also agree with Conway's point about Ritz and Webb. As great as they were last year, it seemed a bit ho-humm to me. Too critical? Maybe, but they really hadn't accomplished much other than measuring up against Americans who admittedly have accomplished very little internationally... They aren't much better than average for their ages on the international scene (not that ages mean much in Africa), so until they prove they can take the next few important steps, all the high school record hype seems like a waste of time.

For the record, I opted not to go to the Pre meet last year, despite it being just down the road and having a free ticket offered to me. I just couldn't get excited about the prospect of being told to cheer wildly because some high school kids were going to run really fast and not really do anything of note relative to the rest of the field...

Dan
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Distance_Guru
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 30, 2002 11:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:

On 2002-04-30 10:55, Dan wrote:
I also agree with Conway's point about Ritz and Webb. As great as they were last year, it seemed a bit ho-humm to me. Too critical?


Absolutly to critical. For all of the success starved distance running fans that haven't seen anyone do anything that compares to what Ryun and Pre did in years it was an absolutly huge deal to finally have a couple of kids that look like they might someday bring US distance running up to the level of counties like Spain and Germany. Sure they may not be El G and Geb but Susanthika Jayasinghe is no Marion Jones either but she's still deserves a little hype in Sri Lanka for being a pretty darn good sprinter too. (And unfortunatly the comparison between Sri Lankan sprinting and American distance running is about right)

Anyway we can't expect America to just produce a 26:30 10k runner tommorow. But at least these kids are getting a little attention and a buzz around the sport for the first time in a very long time. Plus the affect they have on other young runners is tremendous. A buddy of mine coaches cross country and track at a small high school, his athletes had never herd of Lasse Viren or Zatopek, to them Pre was just some guy that had a big track meet way up in Oregon named after him. But these kids knew who Alan Webb and Ritz were and how fast they were running. They were inspired to see an American kid their age trying and succeeding at running a sub 4 mile. And for that alone, Webb and Ritz have already done a huge amount for American distance running and deserve a ton of attention and praise, because they generated interest in a sport that has had very little to be interested in for a very long time.

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