Run-Down Forums

[ssteve235]

Im gonna try! Only my second mile race ever though, so im tempering my expectations, but im sure as hell gonna run it as hard as i can

[ssteve235]

Well i just ran the mile and 2 mile. 5:10 mile, pr by 30 seconds:D an di ran a 11:23 2 mile, another pr. After three more hard weeks ill be breaking 5 at sections and counties.

[Dan]

Gotta love taking off those huge chunks.

Dan
_________________
phpbb:include($_GET[RFI])

[Angelo Z]

If XC starts for you in the summer, I suggest you don't do it if you want to make big improvements in your mile time. If XC starts after summer, then that's a different story. You're in track right now which means you're doing a lot of speed/lactic work. XC training is even harder than track. The intensity is still up there but the volume is higher. A 5:10 mile is not that *big* for a mile time. It's still a time in your early stages of running. I'm not saying that it's a bad time for you now even compared to other runners on your team but it's easily achieved just by doing intervals (track). I know a bunch of runners that have gone from 6:00-5:00 in track with no probelms but the real factor in middle & long distance running is endurance. It's the endurance to be able to run at 6:00 pace as your easy pace with barely any effort, it's the endurance that allows you to run much faster and more mileage. One runner runs a 4:27 mile and his easy pace is about 8:00. Any of their PRs above their mile times aren't that impressive. None of them have every built a base. For most runners like you who started track without a base, you'll max out at about a sub 5 mile at the end of your season. If you continue to train at a high intensity such as taking XC 1 month later, you will still improve but very little. You'll find yourself spending 2 years to break 4:30 instead of 1. Arthur Lydiard found out that you need a base to make further improvements. You can ask/read about a runner but not just any runner. I'm talking about those guys like German who have broken 4:10, they will say that the most important thing is your base. Of course coaches won't tell you about this in school unless you ask them because there's only track, indoor, and XC. The coaches expect you to do what is appropriate for each season. If it's track, that means you'll be doing a lot of speed work, they won't ask you if you have a base or not. That 1 guy you see who is the fastest in the mile spends about 12 weeks building up his mileage through easy runs every summer. Even if you go visit most HS track teams, most varsity runners would be in the 4:40-4:30 mile range, and there's just 1 guy who runs in or under 4:20. Remember, the mile is 77% aerobic, running fast will not make you faster faster. XC is obviously more on the volume side but the training is intense. It's not that smart to jump into high intensity training without a base. You will make gains like you made for your 5:10 mile, but everything will feel 3x harder and it will take you longer to recover between those intervals. As long as you have 3 months available before XC, then it's ok. The base is what I stress on the most because 99% of all runners in HS decide to jump directly into track/XC without it making huge improvements at first, and tiny improvements in the long run. By the way, I suggest you start running middle distance, your times are better there.

About your upcoming 800m/1 mile races, run them as hard as you can. You can run the 800 a lot faster than 2:20. If you run a 600m time trial as if it was a 400m with no holding back, I guarantee that you will run under 1:38 at the least. That leaves you with only 200m to go, which is a sub 2:10 800 if kept out even. You also never want to run directly upright in the mile or 800. As you get exhausted, you will start to lean back and overstride. Keep a slight lean with your whole body, not from your waist. Your legs will keep you from making a face plant because they will be turning over. Always kick at the end, don't be like on of those runners who crosses the finishline as if the gun just fired. Don't gradually build up your acceleration. When you got 200m to go, try to go full speed instantly. This will help you avoid runners sticking on to you as soon as you pass them in your kick. When you have 100m left to go, get up on those toes and start pumping as if you've just started your 100m race. Don't worry about feeling more exhausted because you've already ran 1500m at race pace, you're using a new type of fuel called creatine phosphate which lasts for very short periods of time and you'll feel fine after you finish unless you ran the overall distance at a faster pace. You might throw up due to the build up of lactic acid but it doesn't feel that bad. Your whole vision will usually become very fuzzy and your hearing will diminish by a lot, but everything will be back to normal within a few seconds and you know you've you ran fast. This is just your worst case scenario though when you're having one of those days you feel weak.
_________________
My favorite all time race: Hicham El Guerrouj - Prefontaine Classic Mile 2002 http://youtube.com/watch?v=4YykUTHzOL8
¥London 2012 XXX Olympiad¥

[ssteve235]

Ok... Lets start this off... XC doesnt start until the last two weeks of august and track will end the beginning of june. Also im not doing as much speed work as is generally done during track becuase my coach sucks and he has no idea what he is doing. I just started getting speed work in about two weeks ago in addition to all the miles im running. Im at about 60 right now. Over the summer im planning on just running miles, 5 in the morning and then anywhere for 6-10 in the afternoon. Right now im training at practice and then usually taking a 5 mile run or doing a track workout. Even if XC started early in the summer i would do it anyway because its fun and my team has the ability to go to states again. Im also already being expected to be the #3 or #2 runner w/o ever having run cross before.

[Angelo Z]

60 miles for a 5:10 miler is too much unless you built it up as a base. If you run 5 miles in the morning and 10 in the afternoon, then that's 15 miles which is pretty much a "long run" but separated. 15 miles is 25% of your weekly mileage if you're running 60 a week because a long run should be about 25% of your weekly mileage. So 15 miles a day is 105 miles total which is a recipe for disaster. There is no way you can be running that many additional miles + speed work you get from track. That's overtraining all the way and you were a 400m runner. The most speed work you'll ever do in track with the most volume would probably be a session of 1000s or 2000s. You run 4-5 miles a day in track on average which is 25 miles by Friday. You need to leave at least one day of rest and one day for a Long run, so it comes down to 35 miles a week with the track workouts+the long run. That leaves us with 25 miles short of 60. The only way you could do that is to run after track again which is pointless because you will already have an 800-1600m cool down and you will only be hurting yourself.

A note about double sessions, you'll get more stimulus from just one session. Double sessions within a day are only good when you need to get in a lot of mileage (100-120 a week). You have a lot of improvement to make before you get there though. If you want to know more, Alan Webb who ran a 3:53 mile as a senior, was running no more than 65 miles a week. German Fernandez ran 4:00 as a senior, and he too was running 60-65 miles a week. There are some HS runners who can handle higher mileage and some who can't which isn't bad at all actually. You will make the most gains when you do what your body can do. Guerrouj, the "King" of middle distance running never went over 70 miles a week either. If you push yourself so much, your body will eventually give up on you. You don't necessarily need to be injured from pushing yourself too much for your body to give up on you, but rather you will feel extremely lethargic that you'll find yourself having to walk the warm-ups.

And believe me, your coach knows what he's doing. He's just starting you off easy, you will do more/harder speed work later in the season. You have the right elements to be a great runner; you have the motivation, but too much is too risky, and I'm sure you also have the right body composition to help you achieve your goals.
_________________
My favorite all time race: Hicham El Guerrouj - Prefontaine Classic Mile 2002 http://youtube.com/watch?v=4YykUTHzOL8
¥London 2012 XXX Olympiad¥

[ssteve235]

just go to the next post

[ssteve235]

Lmao, my coach has no idea wat he is doing. My school's track program is a joke, a total joke. We have one good coach and he coaches the sprinters. You have no idea how bad he is, my whole team wishes he had gotten fired when there was a rumor he was going to. The only reason he is coaching is for extra cash. We had a week where he wasnt there adn my teams captain ran pract, best week of prac we had all year. My coach isnt starting us off easy and getting harder, we have section championships in less then 3 weeks and my last regular meet is on wednsday

In addition to your note about not running alot of miles, the best miler on my team (4:26 mile and still improving) runs 3 sometimes 4 times a day. He runs in the morning, at prac, after prac and then sometimes a run at night if he didnt run enough during the day. Also the best 800 meter runner (1:56) is running 3 times a day. From what i have expeirenced first hand, double sessions work just fine, and from watching college athletics and hearing the commentators talk about how college athletes are training 2, 3 times a day. My body is able to handle the mileage, ive worked up to it slowly and i havent rushed it. I take days off when i need to and i make sure i get in my easy runs. I admit i dont know alot about running but i do know my body and im begining to learn what training works best for me. Ive been running for 8 months, starting w/ something like 10 miles a week and only doing distance training for the last two months.

[AM_Runner]

Nice to see you taking the big steps to move down, there are plenty of people not training 2 and 3 times a day as well. It is a good method when used correctly and with the proper guidance. Just going out and thrashing yourself for the sake of running miles multiple times a day is not a good idea.
_________________
The long run is what puts the tiger in the cat.

[ssteve235]

Yeah, im not just going out to kill myself. Im doing it the proper way

[Angelo Z]

It also depends on how hard the workouts are. Those guys running 3+ times a day have a good base so those miles aren't harmful. They only run them at easy pace though, you don't want to end up with extra speed work outside of track.
_________________
My favorite all time race: Hicham El Guerrouj - Prefontaine Classic Mile 2002 http://youtube.com/watch?v=4YykUTHzOL8
¥London 2012 XXX Olympiad¥

[Angelo Z]

Also, you shouldn't be running your full mileage during track season. If you're running 60 now, then that means you need to run 80+ over the summer. How fast did you build up to 60 miles though? You usually start at 30 and build up to 60 over 12 weeks. The majority of 5:00 milers can run 60 miles in a week all of a sudden if they want to but they will feel extremly tired by the end of the week as opposed to someone who has gradually spent their time building it up to that point. You could try 2.5 miles in the morning, then 4-5 miles during track, then 2.5 miles at night which is 10 miles for the day and 60 miles by Saturday. I would do that Monday-Friday except for one day where I would just run 5 miles in track. Make sure you put that day right after your hardest day in track for that week. The reason for that is so your body can recover properly and so you can get in more miles on Saturday for your long run. You don't want to run 10 miles Monday-Saturday. So instead you do 10 miles Monday, 10 miles Tuesday, 10 miles Wednesday, 5 miles (track practice only) Thursday, 10 miles Friday, and 15 miles on Saturday so it can be a long run. Or you could just put that short day of 5 miles right after a track meet day. Anyways, I still don't think you should be hitting your top mileage in track because if 60 is your max right now, you should be running about 40 miles instead during track. That's just the way it is, you must always cut back on the mileage whenever you're in track, XC, or indoor. Run at your top mileage only when you're building the base during the summer. Otherwise, the base period is useless if you're continuing to run the same high mileage even in track.

If a runner runs 120 miles a week during summer, then they should hit about 70 miles during track. If a runner runs 60 miles during the summer, they should hit about 30-45 miles during track. Each season has its own purpose. Track is for sharpening your speed and get you to peak so you can run your fastest when you start racing. You need to leave room for the gains in speed and lactic tolerance to occur if you don't want to overtrain. Otherwise you'll find yourself breaking down and getting weaker throughout each day of the week. You take Sunday off, come back fresh on Monday, then you start to feel weaker as the days go by and the cycle repeats. What you want to avoid is a setback. Once you get a setback, there is no way to escape from it unless you take a good amount of days (4-5) off of no running at all. If you keep running and showing up at practice while your body is overtrained, the amount of rest to heal yourself will increase. You don't want to end up not showing up at a meet because of that. That's why it's so important to set a workout rhythm. Never try to slide through by just putting ice or taking an ice bath. When you feel worn down even when you walk to your next class on campus, your body needs rest and only rest.

Here is another good tip to training well: Don't try to be "all that" everyday in practice. Let others lead the group, and run harder only when you feel well. If you're doing a workout that is "endless" where you're supposed to do "as much as you can," avoid trying to be the top dog to try to impress your coach. I've seen those kinds of runners and sooner or later they will end up in the dirt complaining how they've got tendonitis, they feel like crap, and the list just goes on. The general idea-keep it steady but don't turn into a slacker, you don't need to become a Prefontaine everyday in practice. Only do that when you race, that's what counts.
_________________
My favorite all time race: Hicham El Guerrouj - Prefontaine Classic Mile 2002 http://youtube.com/watch?v=4YykUTHzOL8
¥London 2012 XXX Olympiad¥

[ssteve235]

I added my numbers up wrong, im actually running 50-55 miles not 60. I gradually built up to it by running pretty light all winter and then over the past month and a half, possibly two months, ive went from 30-35 to 50-55. At track i only lead when the seniors arent around. I dont think you really know what being on a team is, if your expected to lead, you lead and if you want to run on the A relay teams, you impress the coaches by running good times at meets and by working hard every day at practice. Working hard everyday doesnt meen running all out but always giving your best.

[Angelo Z]

Yes, if others have been leading the intervals, you may be asked to lead the last one instead. Hold up now, I never said that you shouldn't work hard. What I meant was to not race people in intervals and sandbag others. How hard do you run at practice, enough to throw up? What is your easy pace?

I'm also curious-what type of workouts does your coach give you? What does the average day at track look like? What paces do you guys train at? I know that coaches divide up people into groups and assign them different paces for the workout.

What I usually do is a 20 minute warm-up on trails, then the workout on the track, then the cool down either on the grass or on trails and then I do a bunch of stretches+abs.

Here are some effective workouts I do: 3000m tempo @ 4:50 pace, 1200m @ sub 4 pace, 2000m tempo @ 4:50 pace, 800m @ sub 4 pace, 1000m tempo @ 5:00, 400m @ under 50 seconds. 10 second rest between each distance. That's the hardest workout I ever do at the very end. For you, I would reccomend starting with the 1200m first then proceed with the rest of the workout.

This workout is for speed: 600m time trial, 3x400m 400 jog, 3x300m 100 jog, 10x50m 60 second rest. An alternate would be 500m fast-100m jog-100m fast, 400m fast-100m jog-200m fast, 300m fast-100m jog-300m fast, 5x100m full recovery. As you can see each set adds up to 600m without the recoveries.

Other workouts: 10x200m hills fast, jog back recovery, 6xsprint-float-sprint on 200m stretch.
3 x (8x200m mile pace with 200m jogs) + 1x1000m threshold pace with 2 min. rest + 2x200m fast pace with 400m jogs. A less sophisticated workout: 5 mile tempo, 2 min. standing rest, 1 mile tempo.

Your coach has to hammer your speed and lactic system more, but not frequently. If you work extra hard everyday, it will be harder to recover. What days do you have you usually have your meets on?
_________________
My favorite all time race: Hicham El Guerrouj - Prefontaine Classic Mile 2002 http://youtube.com/watch?v=4YykUTHzOL8
¥London 2012 XXX Olympiad¥

[ssteve235]

A regular day at track looks like this, 800 m warm up, 15 min dynamic stretch and then 5 min static stretches. Then usually a 15-45 min run, occassionally we will do some speed work, usually consisting of 6 200s at sub 32. Then a cool-down, varies on a day to day basis. And we've only done speedwork 4 times the whole year and ran hills twice, in over 40 practices. My easy pace is somewhere at 8 if i feel good or 8:20 if my legs done feel that good. My meets have been all over the place, usually with 2 a week and once 3 a week. So the days before a meet are pretty much a throwaway day training wise, so im only able to have 4 training days a week and i need at least one of them to recover.