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Gatlin 9.76 WR
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Kishan Gill
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PostPosted: Sun May 28, 2006 10:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't know if you read boldons comments but he suspects the time to be windy citing fasubas 9.84 after a previous best of 10.09.

This does not take away the fact that gatlin is not capable of running sub 9.8 but it does make you think that the organisers really wanted to hold on to the record. Great exposure for doha. Also reminicent of the suspiciously faulty wind gauges in indianopolis in 1985.
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Conway
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PostPosted: Tue May 30, 2006 8:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah but what Ato didn't tell you is that Ato's PR entering 1996 was 10.03 He went straight to 9.93 on 4/21 - even earlier than Fasuba !!!! So its not like large improvements are NOT possible ...

Here's another example Mo Greene started 1997 with a 10.08 PR Came into Nationals with that PR Ran 9.96 In his heat, then 9.90 in the final (with only a +0.2 wind) !!! And at the time the WR was 9.84 ...

If MO and Ato could do these kinds of things almost a decade ago, why can't this kid ???????

Just cause Ato said so means little to me ... Especially when he leaves out some of his own "extraordinary" achievements ...
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Kishan Gill
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PostPosted: Tue May 30, 2006 8:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fair point but fasuba will need to back it up with several solid times.
10.09 to 9.84 is a 3 metre improvement. we are talking 9.84 as a first sub 10 and not 9.96!.
Maybe I am being too sceptical but this sport has been torn to shreds as far as credibilty is concerned thanks to the montgomeries and chambers of this world.
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Dan
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PostPosted: Tue May 30, 2006 11:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gatlin ran extremely fast at Pre this weekend in average conditions. If Fasuba's time from Doha is suspect, than so too should be Gatlin's, but Gatlin proved he's capable of running that fast right now.

Dan
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Conway
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PostPosted: Wed May 31, 2006 5:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kishan Gill wrote:
Fair point but fasuba will need to back it up with several solid times.
10.09 to 9.84 is a 3 metre improvement. we are talking 9.84 as a first sub 10 and not 9.96!.
Maybe I am being too sceptical but this sport has been torn to shreds as far as credibilty is concerned thanks to the montgomeries and chambers of this world.


Carl Lewis never broke 10.00 after running 9.86 so why does Fasuba ??? Burrell never broke 10 after his 9.85 ... Montgomery never broke 10 after his 9.78 ... Oba Thompson only had one sub 10 after his 9.87 ...

Not saying that I don't want to see Fasuba run fast, but saying there are MANY instances of guys running fast then never being able to back it up ... So why should Fasuba be held to a different standard ???
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Kishan Gill
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PostPosted: Wed May 31, 2006 9:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

For a change you have come up with a flimsy example conway.
Burrell and Lewis were running sub-10s consistently for many years beforhand. They did not just abruptly stop. Maybe Burrell did to some extent but he was more or less a consistent performer from 1989 through to 1994 .

Now if Fasuba can carry that performance over for a few seasons at least barring major injury, than all is fine and well. However if he is not able to do that than you can draw two conclusions. Either the time was windy and he got pulled along thanks to Gatlin so it is a one-off or he has been a little naughty and has been hanging out with the wrong crowd.
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Conway
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PostPosted: Wed May 31, 2006 10:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The fact that Lewis and Burrell did so beforehand, has no bearing on the fact the couldn't afterwards Course it is interesting that you singled them out and ignored all the others !!! LOL And there are even more, if you like I can put together a list

And there is a difference between running 9.9's and running 9.8x History has proven that Want some other greats that ran a single 9.8 and couldn't get back ??? Start no further back that Linford Christie and Donovan Bailey 9.8x knocked the crap out of Bruny too !!!

I've held a belief for some time that there are pressures put upon the body once those speeds are attained that hampers the bodies ability to get back there Even the current co-record holder (Asafa Powell) has had difficulty getting back to sub10's since his Record run Since his record Powell ran 10.04 in Kingston and 10.02 in London Then injured So far this year he's run 10.29, 10.03, 10.03, 9.95, 9.93w Good marks But based on what you're saying, and the fact he's run the 9.77, then he should be laying down 9.8s like clock work !!!

Based on your logic 19.32 should've meant that MJ was a regular around 19.5/19.6, yet he only ran better than 19.9 twice in the next four years !!! Beamon never jumped 28 feet after going 29'2 !!! I could go on and on, but my point is simple Extraordinary performances and not always duplicated !!! Sometimes even a blind squirrel finds an occasional nut And when it is difficult for those already identified as the best/elite, imagine the difficulty for someone who just got caught up in the moment !!!
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Conway
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PostPosted: Wed May 31, 2006 10:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Take a look at the Sub 10 Club You will see that most have not run fast as often as you might think

52 - Maurice Greene
28 - Ato Boldon
27 - Frank Fredericks
15 - Donovan Bailey
15 - Carl Lewis
15 - Justin Gatlin
14 - Asafa Powell
12 - Dennis Mitchell
10 - Jon Drummond
9 - Leroy Burrell
9 - Linford Christie
9 - Shawn Crawford
7 - Dwain Chambers
7 - Bruny Surin
6 - Tim Montgomery
6 - Francis Obiquewlu
5 - Andre Cason
5 - Bernard Williams
4 - Kim Collins
4 - Davidson Ezinwa
4 - Seun Ogumkoya
4 - Calvin Smith
3 - Olapade Adeniken
3 - Mike Marsh
3 - Coby Miller
3 - Obadele Thompson
2 - Deji Aliu
2 - John Capel
2 - Daniel Effiong
2 - Olusoji Fasuba
2 - Leonard Miles Mills
2 - Ray Stewart
2 - Aziz Zakari

With 17 more that have only done it once !!!
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Kishan Gill
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 01, 2006 11:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

your reasoning is sound in that people can sometimes run an exceptional time and not be able to replicate it again.

However you have only reinforced the point I was trying to make originally. That fasubas time maybe a one-off. The difference in our views is that you are more open to his potential whereas I am being sceptical, hence the allusion to possible steroid use or a windy time.

One factor could be good genes as I read that Fasubas mothers cousin is the great Don quarrie.
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Dan
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 01, 2006 12:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Did you not see this post of mine further up the page?

Quote:
Gatlin ran extremely fast at Pre this weekend in average conditions. If Fasuba's time from Doha is suspect, than so too should be Gatlin's, but Gatlin proved he's capable of running that fast right now.

If doping is the suspicion, that's one thing, but there's no evidence to support your's and Ato's claim of sketchy wind readings. If Fasuba needs an illegal tail wind to run that fast, then how is it Gatlin isn't similarly affected?

Dan
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Kishan Gill
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 01, 2006 1:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Of course it's pure speculation. I do not have any evidence to support my assertions.

What I am saying is that in the realm of possibilities it is not entirely impossible that their may have been some improper conduct in trying to secure a record and there could be more to it.

This is nothing new of course. There have been many examples of intentional or unintentional bungling by organisers in the past. The indianopolis wind gauge controversy I mentioned earlier, evangelistas long jump measurement in The Rome WC in 1987 and pedrosos anulled Long Jump Record in Sestiere in 1993.

I am sure gatlin has the ability to run 9.76 or even better in less favourable conditions this year but Fasubas run does seem to be a very large improvement. Maybe not as marked an improvement as Flo-Jos from 87 to 88 which I don't care what you think, i suspect foulplay.

I do feel i am being unfair on Fasuba and do hope he has a great season and career for that matter. I would love to see an African finally becoming a champion in this event but I think we should wait and see.

And let me add once more that as you are aware there are a long list of fast times that have a question mark over them under the IAAF lists such as Bryzgins 10.03 and Ezinwas 9.91 not to mention woronins 10.00 which is officially sanctioned biut I sometimes think it may be an incorrect reading than a one-off performance. Than theres johnson of australias 9.93.

I have entered controversial territory here and we can argue about it till the cows come home but we will never know the truth. You can take a sceptical position or be a bit more open-minded about it like yourself and conway.
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Dan
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 01, 2006 2:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
it is not entirely impossible that their may have been some improper conduct in trying to secure a record and there could be more to it.

Of course it isn't impossible, but it also isn't terribly plausible. Gatlin's performances were consistent across that race and his next one, so a very strong argument can be made for the reported conditions being legitimate.

Dan
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Kishan Gill
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 02, 2006 9:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am not questioning Gatlins ability to run 9.76 than fasuba being able to run 9.84.

we can summarise using conways output that:
1) Fasuba ran the race of his life and will not be able to get to that level again.

2) Fasuba has emerged as the new creme de la creme of sprinting and their is more to come.

3)Fasuba's been up to no good.

4) The organisers have been up to no good.

I am inclined towards the latter two although I have no evidence to support it other than past histories. I just love a conspiracy although I do believe the US landed men on the moon.
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Dan
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 02, 2006 9:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I am not questioning Gatlins ability to run 9.76 than fasuba being able to run 9.84.

That's the problem, though, they're one and the same in this case. Gatlin demonstrated the time to be legit in the best way possible -- by backing it up with a similar performance -- so there's no reason to question the conditions. I have no comment on your item #3, but item #4 is the criticism you started out with (based on Ato's speculation), and there's nothing there to support it.

Dan
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Conway
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 02, 2006 10:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I will summarize my personal feelings on the matter thusly - person feelings have no bearing on what athletes are able or unable to do ...

As I've alreadey demonstrated there are numerous individuals thathave run extraordinary times, but only done so once or twice ... Not unusual ... And as far as the list of times with Bryzgin, Ezinwa, etc, there are no question marks over them save for those individuals that don't believe ... The day we begin ratifying times based on belief and perceptin is the day track and field truly descends into the toilet ...
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