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Micah Ward
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Joined: 08 May 2000
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Location: Hot&humid, GA

PostPosted: Wed Feb 07, 2007 2:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Congrats Hammer on both your team and your writing gig.

BTW, are you familiar with Jack Farrell and his training philosophies? When you have a few free minutes (yeah right...if you are like most of us) check www.coacheseducation.com and then click on the Running tab and look for Farrell's articles.

We had talked about them in a thread somewhere....but I'd like to see what you thought too. I'm getting forgetful now that I am 50, did you take part in the earlier thread?
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Hammer
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Joined: 17 Jan 2002
Posts: 385
Location: New Mexico

PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2007 8:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I read the articles and I do not disagree with anything that he believes. I have come to the understanding that "many roads lead to Rome" and therefore a coache's motivational abilities are probably more important than thier specific workouts.

But.......(1)I wonder if his basic ideas about training have evolved due to the California season. For a CA team to be successfull they must run well 5 weeks in a row. In most states a team only has to put it together for 2-3 weeks (2 in most states 3 in New York).
(2) I believe that the mileage is quite low. 56 mpw for elite High school runners is definatly low. I believe that this is another example of American HS Coaches attempting to do the same job with less work.

I have to go but I will talk more about the article later
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Dan
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Joined: 22 Mar 1999
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Location: Salem, OR

PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2007 11:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You make some good points. I'm of the opinion that most coaching innovations come out of necessity. "I've got a problem. How do I solve it?"

The multi-layered California championship system requires a much more consistent output than a typical taper/peak can provide. However, in discussing it with other coaches, Farrell's general approach seems to be one that has worked quite well in completely different settings. I was a bit luke warm to it at first, but it's grown on me considerably.

I wouldn't say that mid-50's is all that low. For elite individuals, maybe, but for overall teams I doubt there are a significant number out there doing better. The best teams in this area seem to be in the 55-60 mpw range, from what I've seen. The makeup of the mileage might also be important. I would guess that 8 miles a day, 7 days a week is more effective than 3 days of 10 miles and 4 days of 6 miles, for example, from an aerobic development standpoint.

However, I do disagree with a few of Farrell's ideas, such as the shying away from discussing strategy and the borderline monotony of the training. I like the general even keel foundation, but beyond that, I think you have to diverge with the specifics and play to your coaching strengths. In my case, that is organization and preparation, so Farrell's advice is at direct odds.

Dan
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Hammer
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Joined: 17 Jan 2002
Posts: 385
Location: New Mexico

PostPosted: Sat Feb 10, 2007 3:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As far as mileage goes my teams run between 45-55mpw. But that has more to do with the fact that 90% of my runners play basketball and I am not able to complete a year round program with my entire team. I am also more careful with my runners because of our numbers. Our school is small (200 students) and I have usually had only 3-7 quality runners per year. If I was coaching at a bigger school where I had better numbers and 70-80% of my scoring team being seniors I would push them to run more mileage (75-85mpw).

While interacting with coaches @ NTN I found many of the top schools and individuals to be training in that range or higher. I do not know what the Spokane area teams are doing but I would be interested to know.

I am also critical of the monotony of Farrell's program, but if you can "sell water to a whale" anything will work. I would also be interested to see how well Farrell's runners do in track. Los Alamos High School in New Mexico (NTN 2006 boys, NTN 2004 girls) run a SIMILAR system as far as mileage and they do NOT perform as well in track.
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Dan
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Joined: 22 Mar 1999
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 10, 2007 9:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mead HS (Spokane) has typically been pretty low mileage (45 mpw or so), but I'm not sure what Ferris, Central Valley, and University do. I'd guess at least a few of them are cranking out pretty high mileage.

Dan
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Hammer
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Joined: 17 Jan 2002
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Location: New Mexico

PostPosted: Sun Feb 11, 2007 5:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wonder how (if) Mead's training changed when Pat Tyson left.?

I think that coaches should tailor mileage to athletes. Mileage Hogs like Matt Tebo of Eldorado (NM) can handle high mileage and he has excelled. Some athletes have produce some excellent times on anaerobic dominated programs.
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Paul
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Joined: 28 Apr 2002
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Location: Oregon

PostPosted: Thu Feb 15, 2007 5:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hammer, thanks for the update. I went to Dyestat and read a few articles. Very well written, and thorough, like Dan said. I was especially intrigued by the New Mexico Running Culture article.

Remember Shadrack Kiptoo-Biwott who you talked about a few years ago. Did you know that he is now attending Univ of Oregon? He and Galen are the top 2 XC runners. Acosta raves about him.

I live in Portland. Two years ago our running club actually worked the course at NTN. Then in the afternoon, I ran in the Master's division. What an embarrassment that was! Embarassed

I hope you are able to visit more often. I am always interested in your opinions, as are others.
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Paul
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 15, 2007 5:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Micah, I apologize for not responding to your thread on Jack Farrell. I read just about everything there was on the coaches education website, but I never chimed in. I will, over the next few days, on the original thread.
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Hammer
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Joined: 17 Jan 2002
Posts: 385
Location: New Mexico

PostPosted: Thu Feb 15, 2007 7:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It is good to hear from you Paul.....I have enjoyed my work for Dyestat. I am going to cover the UNM Indoor Classic this weekend. Most of the good HS talent will be at SIMPLOT this weekend in Idaho. I am taking 1 runner who will be running the 3000. He is a sophomore and I am hoping he will break 9:40.

The article about NM was fun to write. I wish I could have included the information and quotes by former Gallup Head Coach Curtis Williams. He is a very interesting character who now coaches in Albuquerque for Sandia High School. He started the NM XC tradition and then left for Texas for a year.

I do remember Shadrack....I have heard from a few former UNM runners that he bragged about his age and that he was over 20 when he was running for La Cueva HS in Albuquerque. It was cool to see Matt Tebo of Eldorado HS beat his course record at Albuquerque academy and then go on to finish in the top 5 at FLF. He also just finished 3rd at Junior Nationals but I don't think he is going to Kenya.
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Hammer
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Joined: 17 Jan 2002
Posts: 385
Location: New Mexico

PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2007 5:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The "Home Town Hammers" will be running in their first outdoor meet of the season today!!! I am only taking a partial team to Belen, NM because some of the basketball kids do not have enough practices (required element when changing sports). My mid-level distance kids should perform well and I have a girl high jumper that should qualify for state in her first competition. I will let you all know how it goes.
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Dan
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2007 8:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good luck! You get to start competition a week earlier than we do.

Dan
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Hammer
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Joined: 17 Jan 2002
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Location: New Mexico

PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2007 7:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I apologize for the late report. The Panthers were just outmatched last weekend. We were up at a meet with mostly big schools. We scored as many points as the other small schools but the meet mostly served as a scrimage. My girl High Jumper did not fare well either. She only managed 4'8" but I do expect her to jump 5' this weekend. We travel to Jemez Pueblo and will be taking 35-40 kids. That is a pretty big # considering our school's enrollment is just under 200. This meet will be a much better measuring stick because of the size of schools in attendence and the fact that we will have most of our team in attendence.
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Dan
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2007 7:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Our school is 9x the size of your's, yet our team is less than double the size...

The season opener seems hit or miss for many schools, what with weather and overlaps between winter and spring sport seasons.

Dan
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